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odog

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#21 [url]

May 17 11 11:04 PM

mass wrote:
I don't see any way that the talent can "improve" just because of a switch to UIL. No private school has been even close to competing with 5A and 4A powerhouses and will not be in 10 yrs from now. If anything I can see them being less competitive.

1) economy-how many more girls from public schools would be able or willing to pay $10,000-$15,000 per year to go to a private school?

2) School loyalty-many public schools have set feeders schools. Many kids look forward to playing for their local schools. growing up dreaming of one thing then last minute heading to a private high school with little or no social networking structure would be detriments to switching
3) financial structure- most private schools don't have private funding set aside for big time tuition assistance. Most of their funding is geared towards keeping the school running. I can't see this changing in this economy. They can't just go to a school district and ask for bond money for new facilities like public schools can.

4) Coaching- I feel that the coaches in high school tend to be a notch below most of the coaching in UIL. I can't see kids wanting to play for unknown coaches.

5) Club vball- this is tied into #1. how many kids parents can afford private school then another 4-5K for club vball? plus i think many of the clubs "woo" high school coaches to either coach for them or to send players to their clubs. I can see situations where club may actually guide players away from private schools

As someone from outside the state I have found this thread very interesting reading as to how opposite my experience of public/private school and athletics has been. I'm in San Francisco and here the private schools are generally superior in all sports. Of course there are exceptions, but private schools dominate for the most part. Club coaches are hired from private schools and vice versa at far higher rate than the public schools. Your statement about who would pay 10-15k per year and club on top of that was so far off of my experience it shocked me. I would guess that at least 80% and probably over 90% of the club players in the san francisco bay area are from private grammar or high schools. My dd goes to a public school but it is one that you have to apply to and admission is based on grades/ test scores so it is more like a private school atmosphere. Her team had 5 of 15 players who had some type of club background (some power,some area players) and they went undefeated. Most other teams in her league were lucky if they had one player with club experience. I would see some naturally gifted athletes and wish they could get club training. In the private schools that her friends are at, there were numerous girls that had been playing since 12u and getting cut at tryouts. Your statement about school loyalty might be one of the biggest differences between Texas and a lot of other areas. I am not from Texas so I might be wrong, but knowing how big high school sports and football in particular is there, the strong generational tie to the local hs team might be what separates Texas from many others and why private school athletics haven't taken as strong a foothold there.

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mass

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#22 [url]

May 18 11 5:09 AM

owl60- i have some knowledge of both public and private schools and i think we disagree because of our perspectives. It seems like you live in the Dallas area and base your opinions from what you see in the Dallas Private school area. TAPPS has 11 or 12 high schools in the Dallas area and many of them are immaculate with lots of $$$ (Prestonwood campus is gorgeous). Do you have much knowledge of the Houston and San Antonio TAPPS schools? Houston struggles with only 6 schools in the highest division. Of those 3 struggle to get 3 teams in volleyball (Incarnate Word, Duchesne and Beaumont Kelly). In San Antonio you have Antonian and Incarnate word but then a big drop off to Holy Cross and others. Bishop lynch and John Paul II have club coaches and maybe Antonian and IWA in San Antonio and St. Pius in Houston but the majority of Private schools in Texas do not have high quality club coaches and/or the coaches have to coach 2 sports which makes them not be able to coach club. When I look at the scene for private schools I look at the top AND the bottom.

club/private school vball-there are many now who do both but my point is that with the economy you won't see an increase in the public school kids who move into private schools and be able to deal with $15,000+ to be in a private school and do club.

Scholarships-Owl60-the majority of private schools around the state do not have lots of money dedicated to giving scholarships to athletes. Perhaps Dallas Jesuit, Bishop Lynch and Strake do but the other 95% of private schools fund raise to pay for the gap between tuition and the actual overall costs to operate the school on a yearly basis. Many hold auction nights that NEED to raise $200-300 thousand just to close the gap to keep the school running.

Attracting players-While I agree that academic standards can be high in college prep private schools many private schools don't have as wide a variety of classes to choose from. Its one thing to attract athletes with high academic standards it's another to tell them that the attractive electives programs are non existent or very limited. Add to that the religion classes that are mostly mandatory taking up possible class choice many kids won't decide to go to private school becuase they can get a better variety of class choice. Also, a factor to consider is the amount of learning and catching up that needs to take place when a public school kid has to undertake when moving to rigorous private schools. I know of a kid who's parents hated their high school, they had the money to send her to private schools and even applied and was accepted to one. The only reason she didn't move was that when she took the entrance exam she was told she'd need to take two summers worth of classes to catch up and be able to graduate.

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canvbc

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#23 [url]

May 18 11 5:57 AM

the central arguement seems to be paying for private school tuition...how about if a bill passes like one is about to with an amendment allowing for free grants to attend private schools....now there's not a monetary block...will recruiting start and when it does how will that affect this merger?

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groupguy

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#24 [url]

May 18 11 7:08 AM

10 states currently have voucher programs, Indiana just voted one in that will provide up to $4500 per student based on financial need, and the Texas legislature is voting on one today.

Our family has been blessed with the ability to pay many thousands in RE taxes for education, and then to pay again for schools that educated our children the way we wanted.  Giving less fortunate families that choice seems fair to me.

People are concerned about knowing what makes for a great education beyond just test scores.  More competition would create the incentives for schools to figure that out and publicize it.

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canvbc

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#26 [url]

May 18 11 2:05 PM

Okay so here's what I have...

Private schools can/need to recruit - public schools can't
Private schools don't have to meet test requirements that public schools do
Private schools get to be selective - public schools take whomever is attendance zone

No what will private schools have to do to be in UIL? No pass, no play (I assume TAPPS has a similar rule). What about recruiting athletes? Yes or no. Will they be subject to state testing or not?

Just asking the questions to get my info straight. The single biggest issue I have is the recruiting issue - don't like it at all...

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mass

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#27 [url]

May 18 11 4:18 PM

canvbc

Private schools recruit students not athletes-a few private schools recruit athletes moreso than students
Many private schools have entrance exams that are tougher then the 12th grade TAKS.
Many private schools select based upon several criteria including:
• Race
• Ethnicity
• Political
• Religion
• Socio-economic
• Education level
• Parent's went there
• geographic
none of which are that they are athletes but to make their schools more diverse and rich in that diversity.

I can't imagine any school wouldn't have a policy for being eligible to be involved in extra-curricular activities. If you have a good affiliation with an accreditation institution that is probably in the measurement instrument. in most private schools that means more to the engineering team then the soccer team.

If you think that some UIL schools don't recruit I've got a bridge to sell you in the desert. I can think of 3 instances on this board in the last couple of years of people alleging recruiting of vball players not to mention basketball and other higher profile sports.

Can we get some people on here from Kentucky to talk about the history of private/public school sports unions?

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canvbc

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#28 [url]

May 18 11 5:22 PM

Oh, I am more than aware of the "move for academic reasons" used by many athletes in public school.
Just seems as a major source of problems from my stand point because if the union happens the main concern will be "level playing fields." My concern I guess is if a TAPPS school joins the UIL and wants to really compete some of those entrance requirments can be "waived" or passed over to be successful. Maybe an exaggerated problem but it will have an impact....

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mass

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#29 [url]

May 18 11 5:50 PM

canvbc wrote:
Oh, I am more than aware of the "move for academic reasons" used by many athletes in public school.
Just seems as a major source of problems from my stand point because if the union happens the main concern will be "level playing fields." My concern I guess is if a TAPPS school joins the UIL and wants to really compete some of those entrance requirments can be "waived" or passed over to be successful. Maybe an exaggerated problem but it will have an impact....

I agree with much of what you say. I just don't see private schools in Texas competing on a level playing field with 5A/4A teams in the sport of volleyball.  Typical 5A and 4A teams (playoff teams) have three to four 6 footers and athletic at that. Most top TAPPS teams (antonian, bishop lynch) have one big go to player that carries them through district and the playoffs. They would have to outwardly change to target players that would meet specific criteria including:

-parents can afford the tuition and all the extra that goes into private school education (buying books, school uniforms, athletic fees, more fund raising, etc)
-parents willing to drive their kids to the school (some could be an hour or more away in the Houston or Dallas metro area)
-students that can handle the rigorous academic standards while maintaining athletic eligibility
-students that don't mind leaving their social circles at a late age including possibly boyfriends
-potential religious conflicts with the schools affiliation

If the economy were going well I could see this being more of a reality. I just don't see enough big time vball players wanting to switch to private schools. We haven't even covered the private schools that are all-girls institutions. Which I think is another roadblock for a few schools (duchesne, st agnes, ursuline, incarnate word).

IMHO I think we'll see 5 or fewer schools move to UIL.

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Woody

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#30 [url]

May 20 11 5:59 AM

Too close to home...

Oh, I am more than aware of the "move for academic reasons" used by many athletes in public school.
This comment made me laugh out loud.

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ixxxl

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#31 [url]

May 20 11 9:45 AM

.

I agree with much of what you say. I just don't see private schools in Texas competing on a level playing field with 5A/4A teams in the sport of volleyball.  Typical 5A and 4A teams (playoff teams) have three to four 6 footers and athletic at that. Most top TAPPS teams (antonian, bishop lynch) have one big go to player that carries them through district and the playoffs.
Too many people seem to be basing their thoughts on the present rather than the future. To  see what will happen in the 10 or so years after Texas combines, you need to look at other states that have done so.

Believe me, those private schools will start getting those 6 footers. And moreso, they will get teams that all play club and coaches that know what they are doing. They WILL recruit, you WILL need mutipliers eventually, and volleyball in the state of Texas WILL be even better in the long run for it all.

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mass

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#32 [url]

May 20 11 11:11 AM

ixxxl wrote:
I agree with much of what you say. I just don't see private schools in Texas competing on a level playing field with 5A/4A teams in the sport of volleyball.  Typical 5A and 4A teams (playoff teams) have three to four 6 footers and athletic at that. Most top TAPPS teams (antonian, bishop lynch) have one big go to player that carries them through district and the playoffs.
Too many people seem to be basing their thoughts on the present rather than the future. To  see what will happen in the 10 or so years after Texas combines, you need to look at other states that have done so.

Believe me, those private schools will start getting those 6 footers. And moreso, they will get teams that all play club and coaches that know what they are doing. They WILL recruit, you WILL need mutipliers eventually, and volleyball in the state of Texas WILL be even better in the long run for it all.
ixxxl

I just don't know where your getting your facts. Facts are that there's little to no money to recruit at the vast majority of private schools. Sure, you'll have your Strake Jesuit, Dallas Jesuit and Bishop Lynch's who may recruit but the other 90% private schools have priorities and missions different from needing to compete in athletics. 

I'd like someone to answer the question why y'all think they will recruit and who are all these schools that will recruit? Does anyone have knowledge of what other states have become 10 years out? I haven't read anyone with facts yet just guesses.

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ixxxl

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#33 [url]

May 20 11 7:12 PM

.

Money to recruit ? Other than perhaps scholarships money the school has on tap  has nothing to do with it. The fact that the private schools will not be hindered by a school district boundary does. 

I dont know exactly what  facts you want but I speak from experience of coaching HS volleyball in both a state that had combined and a state that , like Texas, does not.

I can say that in Missouri, the private schools are represented in the state championships far greater than their numbers should be. I would estimate (guessing at these because Im too lazy to go find them) that in the top 2 size divisions private schools account for about 60-70 percent of the schools in the final four over the last 5 years or so. I dont know the percentage of schools of the top 2 divisions that are actually private vs public but I know they are not 60-70 percent private. On the Kansas side(also combined) , it isnt much different, including St. James, ranked number one in the country (of all schools public and private) by prepvolleyball.

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mass

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#34 [url]

May 20 11 9:44 PM

ixxxl

I've worked in private schools for 10 years and public schools for over 10 years and the relationships I've made in both realms taught me a lot about the workings (financial, fiscal, budgetary expenditures, athletic budgets, fund raising, etc) of each system.

I don't know about Missouri or Kentucky or St. Louis or any area of the country that has strong private schools. I don't know about population stats in those states. I don't know about the history of how public schools came to competing with private schools in those states. I sincerely wish that people who know about these issues would come on here and talk about them. Or maybe even John Tawa could write a story about this. I only know what I've seen first hand in Texas

Scholarship money
The majority of private schools have scholarship money available based upon NEED. Need for the majority of private schools is usually defined as financial need. You usually need to fill out forms and send them in to some accounting place. These forms ask for salaries and such that explain your financial situation. Those independent firms send back information to the school's scholarship fund that says what they THINK you can contribute and how much you need to be given to attend that school. Then they let you know what they can do for you. They don't ask you how good of a baseball player the candidate is or how many back flips and bring it on movies you've seen.

Funding
Most private schools in Texas don't have lots of cash laying around in budgets to spend on athletic programs, chess teams or Speech competitions. People raise money with auctions, bake sales and t-shirt/free dress days. These funds barely pay teachers 90% of their public school counterparts. I don't see private schools finding money (bad economy) to improve athletic programs to attract better coaches, or to buy better facilities, or to hand over to athletes to attend their institutions. In few cases they may be able to fudge what scholarship means and divert that to recruiting kids.

Most private schools exist on their reputation to develop high quality, academically prepared kids. That's what the parents pay for. If they lower the standards and kids aren't prepared for college they lose their marketing edge. Marketing is big and I don't think coming in 3rd in a UIL district in soccer is going to bring in the kids to continue the existence of the school.

There will be exceptions and some schools already recruit (public and private) but even in the 10 years prior to this issue NO private school has even come close to competing with playoff teams in 5A and 4A in Texas. sure the odd upset but you can't tell me one private school who you could say today stacks up with the top 20 public schools on a regular basis. Give the closest private school to the top 20 teams 10 years with diverted scholarships, increased recruiting and maybe they come in first or second in district. But you wont see 60-70% of state championships being won by private schools in Texas.

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mightjustbeme

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#35 [url]

May 20 11 10:11 PM

Thought this might fit in with the discussion when I saw it posted on a prominent volleyball website in Texas. It says a lot; draw your own conclusions.  I've removed the names and locations.



XXXXXX is an accredited private school in the XXXXXX area of XXXXXX. Our Lady XXXXX have won the small private school city championship for the last XXX years. We are currently looking for club level girls that are going into 5th, 6th, 7th, or 8th grade for the 2011-2012 season. Volleyball season runs from August 1st through October 31st. Scholarships are available for girls with strong athletic and academic skills. Starting positions on our varsity team are available based on skill level. 5th and 6th graders have started on our varsity team in previous seasons. Administration and athletic director will determine who is eligible for scholarships. Please contact XXXXXXXX if you are interested in more information.

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odog

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#36 [url]

May 20 11 11:23 PM

That is a bogus post. There are no legal athletic scholarships for grammar or high school students in the US.  All financial help must be based on need.  Surely there are schools that fudge the actual need based on ability but not so blatantly. 

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mass

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Posts: 247 Member Since:12/05/10

#38 [url]

May 21 11 1:29 PM

I found the post for the ad.  I don't know about the legitimacy of the AIAL and their league handbook says nothing against scholarships and recruiting for athletes. This league is a tiny league with no affiliation to any state governing athletic body. And I'd bet that if they ever applied to be part of a state governing body there would be a frank discussion of their recruiting tactics.



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VolleyDad9

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#39 [url]

May 22 11 7:16 AM

You do realize we are talking about 3rd through 8th graders only at this school, right?

Fun? You mean Volleyball is supposed to be fun??

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mass

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Posts: 247 Member Since:12/05/10

#40 [url]

May 22 11 7:33 AM

3rd graders aren't so innocent

volleydad


we know the root of all evil starts with 3rd graders. you let one 3rd grader get away with being recruited and the next day private schools are dominating 5A vball programs statewide

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