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SBsD

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Jul 12 08 12:08 AM

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I think I know the basics, but I'm looking for a bit more. What are the normal criteria for choosing between the two rotations (based on team makeup and especially the skills of the available setters)? I'm aware of the "consistency" factor in using a single setter in a 5-1, along with the slight offensive handicap of fewer hitters.

Also, from the setters point of view, what are the differences between the skills needed for a setter in a 5-1 as compared to those for a pair of setters in a 6-2 rotation? Is a 5-1 setter generally a better pure setter or would she likely have superior all around skills?

My 15 year old may be heading into a 5-1 rotation next season and I'm curious about what to expect. If a 5-1 rotation is used, will one girl get nearly all the setting time at the expense of the other setters? How do most coaches of middle-age (14 to 16 year) teams handle this?

If there are any good articles out there, please feel free to point me toward them instead of spending a lot of time typing. On the other hand, if I've clearly got my head up my rear, don't hesitate to say so. Either way, thanks for any help.

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Barney

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#1 [url]

Jul 12 08 6:38 AM

My daughter set a 6-2 last year and a 5-1 this year. Typically a team runs a 6-2 when it has two setters of relatively equal ability. A 6-2 can be run by either subbing for setters in the front row or having the setters be hitters in the front row.

Couple of things I noticed when my daughter made this transition. First, setting is mentally draining as it requires to you be "on" and "thinking" all the time. When you run a 6-2 you get three rotations where you don't have that mental stress. When my d switched to a 5-1 it definitely required another level of concentration and I will tell you from first-hand experience, it can be a lot of pressure on a 15 year old.

Second, in a 5-1 you have to always be aware of whether you're in the front row or back row (and consequently whether you can attack/block or not). This was definitely a transition for my daughter to remember when she could dump or not, and when she should try to save an overpass with a set or turn around and block when there was an overpass. Just takes some time to become second nature.

Third, teams running a 5-1 will typically run the slide more when they only have two hitters in the front row. So your daughter may be setting more slides. Plus, she'll likely set more to the back row when she only has two front row hitters.

As for playing time, if one setter establishes herself as clearly superior, I think it is a difficult position to sub for because it is such a critical position unless the back up setter is close in ability. My daughter didn't come off the court much this year. This obviosly isn't something to complain about, except given the amount of running around involved in setting, you better be in the best shape on your team.

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VBEye

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Jul 12 08 8:06 AM

A few

Some coaches would prefer to give up the front line blocking presence in order to get better hands on the ball with every set.

Some may perceive a stopping of momentum by the player substitutions needed in a 6-2.

Available personnel (other than setter position) also plays a large role in the decision.

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dmm

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Jul 12 08 10:25 AM

leading the team

The setter is expected to be the leader of the team and keep the tempo and flow going on your side and watch the blocking and such on the other side so they can make split second decisions. It's important to connect with the hitters and know what each one is doing and where they are on the court and the hitters need to trust their setter and feel completely comfortable with them. The setter "runs" the team and there is a lot of responsibility on their back. When there is a good setter running a 5-1 you can see the "dance" between them and the hitters. I'm not saying it isn't possible but it is harder to get that quality when running a 6-2. A setter that has run both will tell you that it is much more satisfying to run a 5-1.

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VBREPORTER

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Jul 12 08 11:09 AM

Hmm...

SBsD wrote:
I think I know the basics, but I'm looking for a bit more. What are the normal criteria for choosing between the two rotations (based on team makeup and especially the skills of the available setters)? I'm aware of the "consistency" factor in using a single setter in a 5-1, along with the slight offensive handicap of fewer hitters.

Absolutely no "handicap" in fewer hitters assoicated with the 5-1. The 5-1 setter when on the front row better be an offensive threat (tips, dumps, attacks) as well as be able to dish the offense. If the 5-1 setter offers no offense from those three rotations while on the front row, then the opponents have a 3-2 advantage (their blockers to your hitters)so setters need to attack and be able to set the slide and get their middle on their backside to make the opponent's MH move and make a choice of who to block the strongside or sliding MH. A good backrow attacker also helps...

Also, from the setters point of view, what are the differences between the skills needed for a setter in a 5-1 as compared to those for a pair of setters in a 6-2 rotation? Is a 5-1 setter generally a better pure setter or would she likely have superior all around skills?

The 5-1 setter has to have the ability to block the opponent's OH; double the opponent's MH when requried; and dig the opponent's RH....so elbows above the net. You can't run the 5-1 with a short setter unless your libero can dig bullets down the line (aka KIVA).

My 15 year old may be heading into a 5-1 rotation next season and I'm curious about what to expect. If a 5-1 rotation is used, will one girl get nearly all the setting time at the expense of the other setters? How do most coaches of middle-age (14 to 16 year) teams handle this?

If the team is going to run the 5-1, the primary setter will indeed get the lion's share of practice reps. The time has to be spent as the setter is now working the timing/height/preference of five hitters. The back-up setter is usually another position player like an OH that can fill in if Setter 1 goes down but if you're a "setter only" in a 5-1, and not the primary, I'd be looking for another team.

If there are any good articles out there, please feel free to point me toward them instead of spending a lot of time typing. On the other hand, if I've clearly got my head up my rear, don't hesitate to say so. Either way, thanks for any help.

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relativeyoungster

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Jul 12 08 3:17 PM

You double the middle with your RS blocker?

For me, the big thing was how alike are the setter's release. and the speed of your offense...the quicker the offense, the more the need for consistantcy....

just my $.02....

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VBREPORTER

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Jul 12 08 3:25 PM

Hmm...

relativeyoungster wrote:
You double the middle with your RS blocker?

For me, the big thing was how alike are the setter's release. and the speed of your offense...the quicker the offense, the more the need for consistantcy....

just my $.02....

...15s you do a lot of weird things when you're overmatched in the middle...I've thrown triples up against one team that had two killers middles and little else on the OH. Won each time we played them but if we had lost, it was going to be someone other than those two stud middles...

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SBsD

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Jul 14 08 7:56 AM

Thank you for the help

Thank you for all the helpful responses. What I'm hearing is that the 5-1 setter needs excellent all-around skills and will also need a great deal of focus and leadership ability to run the team offense. The required all-around skills, including blocking and attacking, preclude using a shorter "pure" setter since substitutions are no longer used for the front row part of the rotation.

Sounds like a massive set of expectations for this position. On average, at what age do club travel teams transition from the 6-2 to the 5-1 rotation? Is it common on teams as young as 14? How about 15? I don't get to see a lot of older girls play, so are most top flight 17 and 18 teams using a 5-1 or still a 6-2?

One last thought: It was mentioned that the 5-1 setter will get the bulk of practice reps and, of course, virtually all the game time. When a team relies on a single player this heavily, I assume that they pretty much collapse if that player goes down for any reason. Nearly all teams have a special player that's important to their success, but this reliance on an irreplaceable setter seems almost extreme. If I were a coach, I'd be pretty nervous about everything hinging on one player.

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VBREPORTER

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Jul 14 08 8:45 AM

Hmm....

SBsD wrote:
Thank you for all the helpful responses. What I'm hearing is that the 5-1 setter needs excellent all-around skills and will also need a great deal of focus and leadership ability to run the team offense. The required all-around skills, including blocking and attacking, preclude using a shorter "pure" setter since substitutions are no longer used for the front row part of the rotation.

Sounds like a massive set of expectations for this position. On average, at what age do club travel teams transition from the 6-2 to the 5-1 rotation? Is it common on teams as young as 14? How about 15? I don't get to see a lot of older girls play, so are most top flight 17 and 18 teams using a 5-1 or still a 6-2?

Not an aged-based initiative but rather a skilled based plan so no automatics that you go to a 5-1 at a specific age. Of the teams we played in 17Open this year, I do not remember any running a 6-2.

One last thought: It was mentioned that the 5-1 setter will get the bulk of practice reps and, of course, virtually all the game time. When a team relies on a single player this heavily, I assume that they pretty much collapse if that player goes down for any reason. Nearly all teams have a special player that's important to their success, but this reliance on an irreplaceable setter seems almost extreme. If I were a coach, I'd be pretty nervous about everything hinging on one player.

That's why all those junior coaches get the BIG BUCKs to stay awake at night worrying and making back-up plans. Seriously though, the same can be applied to any "key" player regardless of position. Until cloning is an acceptable practice, each player brings different skills, brains and passion for the game..it's not plug-and-play. Regardless of position, when a player goes down for any reason, the sub will never had the exact same skills, etc, even if they're twins. The difference or effect of the impact (total collapse versus minor inconvenience) will be the difference between the player lost and the player subbed in and what the coach has done in regard manage the risk including balancing practice time for the back-up setter versus the need for the starting setter to run the reps, know the players, run the offense...but there's no such thing as an irreplaceable setter.

Last Edited By: VBREPORTER Jul 14 08 8:51 AM. Edited 1 time.

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Torami

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Jul 14 08 9:12 AM

Don't Forget Hitting

Another reason to use a 6-2 is if your best setter also happens to be your best hitter. She gets to do both.

Jim

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mavadad42

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#10 [url]

Jul 14 08 10:09 AM

Setters in the 6-2

My daughter played in a 6-2 this year and it was tough at times to watch. Two issues that evolved-the "us vs them" mentality that evolved between the setter/hitter pairs as they rotated through the match and the fact that neither setter worked as much on their blocking skills as they will need to when they get into the high school season (where almost all teams use a 5-1).

Also, it was hard for either setter to evolve into the team leader as neither was on the floor the whole match, keeping them from creating a bond with all of the team's hitters.

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vblifer

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#11 [url]

Jul 14 08 4:40 PM

My daughter was a hitter that ended up setting one season because the second best hitter was the setter and when my daughter was in the back row, there was no offense to speak of. Made it interesting but the 6-2 worked at that time. As a coach, I have run all three, meaning a 5-1, a 6-2 and a 5-1 with a front row/back row setter. This utilized a taller slower setter with a great block in the front row. The difficulty was in ball placement as they delivered differently.
I agree that your daughter will have to be in the best shape of her life. If your club coach is worth anything, both setters will get plenty of reps with all hitters during practice. As reporter said, no setter is irreplaceable, but it can be a difficult thing in the minds of young (and old) hitters to adjust to someone different. Kind of like football when you change a holder for a kicker. It messes with their heads.

Good luck with the transition. I hope it goes well for your daughter.

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PlayaPlease

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#12 [url]

Jul 14 08 6:39 PM

Slightly off topic but the offense I like is a modified 6-2. There's two setters but one sets from the back row and then another setter comes in and plays front row while setting. This is pretty cool because each time the new setter subs in it takes the defense a rally to adjust to the new offensive scheme. This happens several times a game.

Also remember, if the back row setter is short enough, she can just go ahead and dump (remember, she has to be above the net to commit an illegal attack). The other team constantly has to be thinking about your setter and if they don't it will cause much confusion.

Don't forget most refs can't even track back row setters or don't have the you-know-what's to call it. This may or may not surprise people on this forum, but there are many, many refs who couldn't spot a back row attacker if their lives depended on it. Some of them know something weird just happened but by the time they process what it was, two more hits have taken place.

Not condoning cheating mind you, it's more like adapting to the circumstances. Make that clown in the white polo call a back row attack before you quit doing it.

It's ok, I'm a ref.

Last Edited By: PlayaPlease Jul 14 08 6:46 PM. Edited 1 time.

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JumpOnIt69

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#13 [url]

Jul 15 08 5:56 AM

VBREPORTER wrote:
but if you're a "setter only" in a 5-1, and not the primary, I'd be looking for another team.


In all seriousness, at what point is this smart for a setter to do and when is it "diva" behavior? At what age is it "really" important to be the "one" setter? (This is for a girl who wants to play college ball and who has received some interest already)

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VBREPORTER

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Jul 15 08 6:59 AM

Hmmm...

JumpOnIt69 wrote:
VBREPORTER wrote:
but if you're a "setter only" in a 5-1, and not the primary, I'd be looking for another team.


In all seriousness, at what point is this smart for a setter to do and when is it "diva" behavior? At what age is it "really" important to be the "one" setter? (This is for a girl who wants to play college ball and who has received some interest already)



..."diva" behavior was never a consideration in the post. The purpose of JRVB is to teach, develop and train young athletes in the great sport of volleyball regardless if their interest is recreational and short-term, to ultra-competitive and long-term.

A key in that development is competition during play, learning from both your mistakes and successes. Nothing, and I mean nothing, can replace that element in a players development...and again, age is not a factor.

It never ceases to amaze me that parents would rather spend money and have their player sit on the ench of a great team versus play on a good team. I cut a girl from a very successful team the previous year during tryouts instead offering her a place on a very good -2 team where she would be surrounded by players of the about the same level, have excellent coaching but more importantly play versus riding the bench on the -1 team.

Got a call from her frantic mom after try-outs, in tears, and begging me to reconsider. Said that her DD would be a social outcast at school, would be freindless on the -2 team and, if placed on the -1 team, would be more than happy, content and never say a word if she never played. I declined and they left the club. Parents are sometimes just nutz and while this was the more extreme case, there were several other during my coaching career that had the same theme.

Get your player on a team that gets her on the court because it ain't about social; it ain't about parents wanting to hang together; and it ain't about being on the best team if your only view of the game is from the bench.

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ashellbythesea

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#15 [url]

Jul 15 08 3:06 PM

my favorite

My favorite of the two rotations would probably be the 5-1. I have played as an opposite before and I like getting the opportunity to play all the way around the court. I will agree it can be very draining...unless you are in the right shape. However, I find working my butt off very rewarding (haha) because I know it will make me better in the long run.

It is important to have a backup setter as well, whether you run a 5-1 or a 6-2. Because let's face it, injuries and accidents happen. In fact, our setter last year got hurt toward the beginning of the season and we did not have a backup setter to fill her place. Luckily, we did not have any tournaments coming up but when we did have a tournament she was almost 100%. I think it might have hurt us though that we could not practice with a real setter. I know that Texas Tornados 15 Mizuno ran a 5-1 this past season but they did have a backup setter. Very smart.

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Lilroc

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#16 [url]

Jul 22 08 10:59 PM

Both have benefits

I have used a 6-2 in the past b/c of the relative lack of height from our setters (even though they were good "setters") and they had trouble blocking. This year, I had two very good setters and either one of them could have run a 5-1 but both are/were being recruited to play the setter position in college. My senior setter was a phenomenal athlete (5'8", 10' jump touch) who was our best blocker on the team. She ran a 5-1 in high school and will be attending UNLV in the fall. I couldn't not have her set. My junior setter has verbally committed to Penn State and runs a 5-1 in High School. She is taller (6') but just a smidgen less athletic (barely) and is actually a better hitter than my senior setter but not as good a blocker. They both set similarly and we try to run a fast offense so it was tough sometimes when one was not having a good day setting. I am guessing that I will probably run a 5-1 offense next club season to take advantage of having a consistent set to all our the hitters as we will actually get stronger offensively next year.

Both systems have their benefits and drawbacks...it really depends on your personnel and how the coach(es) choose to use them. This will be the first year in probably 10 years of club coaching that I have had great setter who is tall enough to run the 5-1 so it will be a change for me. Most of the teams in our club run a 6-2 but a few have run a 5-1.

Being a setter myself, I prefer running the 5-1, well b/c I don't want to leave the court. Sometimes it is frustrating for me though b/c I'm not 25 anymore and my knees hurt and I don't have a 40" vertical anymore so my blocking is horrible.

AVVC Director of Player Development
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Last Edited By: Lilroc Jul 22 08 11:07 PM. Edited 1 time.

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