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iowavb1

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Posts: 278 Member Since:03/04/08

#21 [url]

Feb 3 12 4:36 PM

Owl60 wrote:
Ranking is never easy and a no win deal mostly. Personally I think this could be a great idea by USAV in several respects. First, it generates more conversation around volleyball, which is always good. Second, given the mysteries/issues we see in individual qualifier seeding, something like this could add accuracy and sunshine to the process. This could really be something very helpful and useful. I am just assuming the effort went into the search engine and website vs. quality of the content and rankings this early in the year. Once a few regional power ranking tournaments have been played, it will help get the phantom teams out and a bit more accuracy on the rankings of the top 75 or so. Hoping so anyway.

I agree with the JT rankings as seeding....would have been a great start for USAV to use that to start the year.

Not sure how regional power ranking tournaments have any weight on the issue... for a tournament to count in the ranking system there must be teams from 3 or more regions...

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Owl60

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#22 [url]

Feb 4 12 7:34 AM

iowavb1, fair point, but I think given where the rankings are now, any benchmarks would help. Time and regional power rankings could do the following: 1) allow cleanup of teams not playing; 2) enable 2010 good teams who's rosters were depleted from last year be spotted if they lose some matches in the region; and 3) several regions have multiple teams which are among the best in the country, so seeing them play does tell you things about this year.

It would have been interesting to test this new rating system 1) against 2009 results to see how it would have ranked vs. how they finished in 2010; and 2) against 2010 results vs. the 2010 JO Nationals finish; which either didn't happen or the view is that the JO Nationals are not reflective of the season results. Anyway, I do think they can get the current ranking a bit more accurate prior to qualifier season. I mean the JO qualifiers have to do something similar to seed their tournaments anyway (i.e., pre March regional tournament results), so why not make it work on this.

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Vintense

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Posts: 586 Member Since:02/01/08

#23 [url]

Feb 4 12 8:52 PM

INTERESTING

The Toledo Volleyball Clubs 18-2 team is ranked higher than its 18-1 team even though if you look at them as 17's teams in 2011, the 2 team did not have a better season.



Oh, we also don't have a TVC 18-2 team this year.

Nice ranking system.

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kcvbmama

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Posts: 169 Member Since:05/20/11

#25 [url]

Feb 5 12 9:11 PM

problems

Yes, this system definitely has bugs....DD's 15s team finished 6th in Open last year and isn't even on the list for 16s, or listed as a 16s team in her region....but the team who finished 21st is somehow 4th.....interesting.

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vb4mee

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Posts: 407 Member Since:01/09/09

#26 [url]

Feb 6 12 12:41 PM

Corrected

kcvbmama wrote:
Yes, this system definitely has bugs....DD's 15s team finished 6th in Open last year and isn't even on the list for 16s, or listed as a 16s team in her region....but the team who finished 21st is somehow 4th.....interesting.


The National Ranking system has been corrected per my conversation with USAV this morning.  As with any new system, there were some glitches.  They very much appreciated our feeback in order to identify the problem.  I'm sure there will still be some bugs to work out, but, looks much better today than last week.  Still continue to enter team results in SUTP and AES throughout this year.  USAV plan is to go strictly to this national ranking system for 2013. 

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PirateVBFan

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Posts: 1,865 Member Since:05/26/08

#27 [url]

Feb 6 12 2:35 PM

In reviewing the rankings it appears that the only way you could possibly come up with the standings they did is to ignore any differences between Open and Club. So finishing 4th in American is better than finishing 10th in Open, etc.

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mass

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Posts: 274 Member Since:12/05/10

#28 [url]

Feb 6 12 3:23 PM

will this ranking system have the ability to see ALL results a team places in AES or other playing system? A couple of years back there was an issue of directors "forgetting" to input their losses and hence got a better seeding position as a result? Who is the person who inputs all the results? independent tournament directors? Club directors? 12-5 coaches?

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kcvbmama

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Posts: 169 Member Since:05/20/11

#29 [url]

Feb 6 12 5:01 PM

vb4mee wrote:
kcvbmama wrote:
Yes, this system definitely has bugs....DD's 15s team finished 6th in Open last year and isn't even on the list for 16s, or listed as a 16s team in her region....but the team who finished 21st is somehow 4th.....interesting.


The National Ranking system has been corrected per my conversation with USAV this morning.  As with any new system, there were some glitches.  They very much appreciated our feeback in order to identify the problem.  I'm sure there will still be some bugs to work out, but, looks much better today than last week.  Still continue to enter team results in SUTP and AES throughout this year.  USAV plan is to go strictly to this national ranking system for 2013. 
You are awesome!!!  Every club needs a vb4mee......  :-)

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12scoach

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Posts: 170 Member Since:01/25/11

#30 [url]

Feb 7 12 4:43 PM

Does anyone have an idea how this affects playing in different age groups? For example, a 14s team playing up in a tournament that counts towards the rankings? Anyone with USAV insight?

Thanks! Brian

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new2kcvball

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Posts: 828 Member Since:10/01/10

#31 [url]

Feb 8 12 5:33 AM

12scoach wrote:
Does anyone have an idea how this affects playing in different age groups? For example, a 14s team playing up in a tournament that counts towards the rankings? Anyone with USAV insight?

Thanks! Brian

I believe that the results applied to the rankings are based on your team playing in their own age group, in a multiple day tournament and there needs to be teams from at least 3 different regions for the results to qualify.
  

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vb4mee

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Posts: 407 Member Since:01/09/09

#32 [url]

Feb 8 12 9:05 AM

rankings

mass wrote:
will this ranking system have the ability to see ALL results a team places in AES or other playing system? A couple of years back there was an issue of directors "forgetting" to input their losses and hence got a better seeding position as a result? Who is the person who inputs all the results? independent tournament directors? Club directors? 12-5 coaches?
It is my understanding from USAV that tournament USAV sanctioned tournament directors are supposed to submit their results to this system throughout this season.  For this season, results should still be entered in to AES and SUTP for back up.  They will be looking at AES along with their rankings system for J.O's for this season while they work out the bugs.  
  

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hitdball

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Posts: 83 Member Since:05/19/09

#33 [url]

Feb 11 12 11:42 AM

new2kcvball wrote:
12scoach wrote:
Does anyone have an idea how this affects playing in different age groups? For example, a 14s team playing up in a tournament that counts towards the rankings? Anyone with USAV insight?

Thanks! Brian

I believe that the results applied to the rankings are based on your team playing in their own age group, in a multiple day tournament and there needs to be teams from at least 3 different regions for the results to qualify.
  
USAV is again making things very hard for teams from Hawaii. The Aloha Region does not offer multiple day tournaments that include teams from 3 different regions. With this new system all Hawaii teams will have terrible seeding when they attend Qualifiers on the mainland even if they had top 10 finishes at Nationals. For example my DDs team finished 7th in the 15s Open last year at Nationals. They are currently ranked 63rd with no way to move up other than to go to a Qualifier on the mainland and hopefully not have 2 really good teams in their 1st pool. Does anyone know if the Qualifiers will be using the USAV rankings exclusively for seeding? 

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VBStatman

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Posts: 394 Member Since:11/06/09

#34 [url]

Feb 20 12 2:40 PM

First Try at Rankings

This is the first year for this ranking system, and it is run by a ranking service that has experience in other sports as I understand it.  The word is that Crossroads is not using it and I suspect that other qualifiers are doing the same this year.  I don't think USAV is going to make this the Holy Grail until they are confident it has credibility.

Hawaii is an interesting point.  Suspect the same is true for Alaska.  Qualifiers count as ranking tournaments so Hawaii and Alaska must be going to at least one qualifier so they will get at least one shot at a legit ranking.  Hopefully, they have some way to adjust for that predicament.

DDs team went from 818th to 133rd (still too low) in a week without playing a ranking tournment so they are still fiddling around with it. DD plays in a ranking tournament this coming weekend so we will get a peek at what happens. USAV plans to use it more next year and of course, it will never be fair for everyone or for that matter anyone.  Just ask the BCS folks.

Maybe it's better than nothing.

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roof roof

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Posts: 109 Member Since:04/15/11

#35 [url]

Feb 20 12 5:44 PM

In our region, the 16s team ranked first, has its ranking by ending up first place in JO National division. All that would make sense except that team lost a lot of strong players last year and this year's team is an entirely new batch. I guess this is the rough starting point with the truth to be determined from the qualifiers.

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VB ALL 1

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Posts: 776 Member Since:07/19/05

#36 [url]

Feb 22 12 2:53 PM

roof roof wrote:
In our region, the 16s team ranked first, has its ranking by ending up first place in JO National division. All that would make sense except that team lost a lot of strong players last year and this year's team is an entirely new batch. I guess this is the rough starting point with the truth to be determined from the qualifiers.
How does USAV get informed about those players dropping off from that team and adjusting their ranking? I have seen brand new teams get formed and until they start winning, get seeded low.

Any ranking system is only as good as the info it gets. As we say in the computer world, GIGO (garbage in = garbage out).

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BigPurce

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Posts: 498 Member Since:02/11/10

#37 [url]

Feb 29 12 3:15 PM

Mizz

I would expect the rankings to be more in line with the first NQ since that is about the only tournament listed in 14s.


PVA finishes 2nd and is ranked 5th?
Xtreme 3rd and is ranked 2nd
NE Elite finishes 7th ranked 3rd

Does anyone have any idea how this works?

Vb4mee, we need your help???

Yeah, well, I always heard there were three kinds of suns in Kansas, sunshine, sunflowers, and sons-of-bitches.  - Josey Wales

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Owl60

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Posts: 798 Member Since:01/10/10

#38 [url]

Mar 2 12 1:56 AM

Disappointed...can we make these not a joke

I kind of understood the content not being there for the pre-season rankings, but I struggle with the objective of this system as we start to see results and still the rankings are not even close.    I don't care what the stated content or formula is, if a ranking system does not accurately reflect the true relative strengths of the teams, then it is a waste and you have ot question why?   We all have a brain and when you know something is wrong, adjust and fix it.  Certainly their are credible arguments and debates on some teams, but the rankings have discrepancies that are just not debatable.   It is just a shame all the information at hand cannot be used to determine something that accurately reflects where these teams should be in a ranking.

For example in 17s, no squabble with Northern Lights since they won a tournament, but you have to be kidding me that anyone would think that T-Street should be ranked 49th and TAV Black is 16th.    To be specific, how does Skyline RSB Royal or Vision Gold or OVA or Sunshine Westside or Long Beach Rox, who finished behind TAV and T-Stret in the LVC get ranked ahead?  Skyline RSB Royal has not defeated TAV in 2011 or 2012.  A5 doesn't qualify for open in 2011 and finishes in Silver in 1st big tournament is ranked 9th??  

Creating controversy is one thing, but these have such credibility issues my guess is that people will stop looking at them.   I was hoping for better.

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BigPurce

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#39 [url]

Mar 5 12 7:32 AM

Mizzz

I feel your pain Owl.  Their system rewards teams for playing in more qualified tournaments (in their age group) and includes points from last year.

So, if a team plays in 4 qualifiers and finishes 7th, they can be ranked above a team that plays in 2 qualifiers and wins both.
Once the season starts, last year's points should be eliminated.
I don't understand why they don't tell each region to use the same system and then pull results from each region. In HOA, their system works fairly well.  It takes into consideration Strength of Schedule, wins, losses etc... similar to the RPI.
If the clubs knew how the system works, they could schedule to maximize their ranking.

I understand the costs in doing this, but charge everyone $5 more and earmark it for a better system.

Yeah, well, I always heard there were three kinds of suns in Kansas, sunshine, sunflowers, and sons-of-bitches.  - Josey Wales

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VBStatman

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Posts: 394 Member Since:11/06/09

#40 [url]

Mar 21 12 8:46 AM

USAV Ranking System may be Rank

Following Crossroads, the rankings were shuffled.  Of interest is that a team finishing tied for 9th among 16 teams who made the Gold bracket in the National Division received better ranking points for the event than did a team that finished solo 13th and won the Silver bracket in the Open Division of the same age group.  So, one might conclude that finishing 16th in National is better than finishing 13th in Open.  I also note that as of today, the USAV has not updated the rankings with the results from the SoCal JNQ, which will be interesting when they do.  Hopefully, they make some adjustments to account for the relative competitiveness among the three divisions in each age group. With the JNQs in full swing over the next month, we will have the opportunity to watch and learn.

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