JVDA vs. USAV

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Woody

Re: Where JVDA members played, Part 1

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Posts: 958

(07/09/08 6:41 AM)

WOW. great data EI. I would guess the overlap is even greater if one looked at the attempted qualification of JVDA teams by attending any of the 9 national qualifiers.

To OldBlueEyes, I agree with EI, data w/o hypothesis is valuable. Happens every day in the newpaper (unemployment rates, percentage rise in gas prices over a period of time, percentage reduction in flights based on airline personel layoffs, etc.... just to name a few I saw in the paper not 10 minutes ago).

expertidiot

Where JVDA members played, Part 3

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Posts: 325

(07/09/08 8:21 AM)

"oldblueeyes" probably knows all of this intuitively, but some of the rest of you might not. (Woody, thanks for the affirmation.)

As mentioned earlier, of the 217 JVDA member clubs, 75 sent teams to the USAV Championships and 64 sent teams to the JVDA Championships.

To further break it down:
... 55 JVDA member clubs only sent teams to the USAV Championships
... 45 JVDA member clubs only sent teams to the JVDA Championships
... 98 JVDA member clubs did not send any teams to EITHER Championship

... and 19 JVDA member clubs sent teams to BOTH Championships. They are:

Altitude Volleyball Club (Colorado Springs, CO)
Asics Willowbrook Juniors VBC (Houston, TX)
Coast Volleyball Club (San Diego, CA)
Impact VBC (Nashville, TN)
Indiana Volleyball Academy (Indianapolis, IN)
Jammers Hawaii Volleyball Club (Aiea, Hawaii)
Kaepa NKJV (Erlanger, KY)
Mizuno Cincy Classics VBC (Cincinnati, OH)
N3 Volleyball Club (Fort Wayne, IN)
North Florida VB Acad (Tallahassee, FL)
Oahu Volleyball Club (Aiea, HI)
Parkway Lightning (Kirkwood, MO)
St. Louis CYC Volleyball Club (St. Louis, MO)
Tampa United Volleyball Academy (Tampa, FL)
TCA (Newport Beach, CA)
Team Saint Louis (St. Louis, MO)
Texas Advantage (Dallas, TX)
Washington Volleyball Academy (Seattle, WA)
Williamson County Select Volleyball Club (Franklin, TN)

Last Edited By: expertidiot 07/11/08 9:41 AM. Edited 1 times.

N2TRUX

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Posts: 1056

(07/09/08 8:24 AM)

Great data EI. It's interesting to read facts that give perspective without bias.

olddblueeyes

Hmmm...

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Posts: 84

(07/09/08 8:48 AM)

expertidiot wrote:
"oldblueeyes" probably knows all of this intuitively, but some of the rest of you might not. (Woody, thanks for the affirmation.)

As mentioned earlier, of the 217 JVDA member clubs, 75 sent teams to the USAV Championships and 64 sent teams to the JVDA Championships.

To further break it down:
... 55 JVDA member clubs only sent teams to the USAV Championships
... 44 JVDA member clubs only sent teams to the JVDA Championships
... 98 JVDA member clubs did not send any teams to EITHER Championship

... and 20 JVDA member clubs sent teams to BOTH Championships. They are:

Altitude Volleyball Club (Colorado Springs, CO)
Asics Willowbrook Juniors VBC (Houston, TX)
Coast Volleyball Club (San Diego, CA)
Impact VBC (Nashville, TN)
Indiana Volleyball Academy (Indianapolis, IN)
Jammers Hawaii Volleyball Club (Aiea, Hawaii)
Kaepa NKJV (Erlanger, KY)
Mizuno Cincy Classics VBC (Cincinnati, OH)
N3 Volleyball Club (Fort Wayne, IN)
Nebraska Volleyball Academy (Lincoln, NE)
North Florida VB Acad (Tallahassee, FL)
Oahu Volleyball Club (Aiea, HI)
Parkway Lightning (Kirkwood, MO)
St. Louis CYC Volleyball Club (St. Louis, MO)
Tampa United Volleyball Academy (Tampa, FL)
TCA (Newport Beach, CA)
Team Saint Louis (St. Louis, MO)
Texas Advantage (Dallas, TX)
Washington Volleyball Academy (Seattle, WA)
Williamson County Select Volleyball Club (Franklin, TN)

...again, just raw data to which no conclusion or point can be determined. How about,

"Of the JVDA membership, how many participated in only JVDA tournaments this season?"...That would provide an indication of "active/supportive" JVDA membership versus "inactive/in name only" clubs that have joined JVDA but did not participate in JVDA tournaments.

expertidiot

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Posts: 325

(07/09/08 9:30 AM)

oldblueeyes, you've given your opinion about the value (or lack thereof) of presenting facts with no opinion, conclusion, or bias. Others clearly disagree with you. So if you don't have any other point to make, would you stop making it?

It is clearly pertinent to know how many JVDA members sent teams to the USAV and JVDA Championships, and I'm certain that most people on this board had no idea what the facts were.

By the way, you apparently don't know the difference between raw data and information. The raw data are the lists that I pulled, but I distilled it into summary information and presented it here.

gasgrill9

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Posts: 30

(07/09/08 9:45 AM)

expertidiot wrote:
oldblueeyes, you've given your opinion about the value (or lack thereof) of presenting facts with no opinion, conclusion, or bias. Others clearly disagree with you. So if you don't have any other point to make, would you stop making it?

It is clearly pertinent to know how many JVDA members sent teams to the USAV and JVDA Championships, and I'm certain that most people on this board had no idea what the facts were.

By the way, you apparently don't know the difference between raw data and information. The raw data are the lists that I pulled, but I distilled it into summary information and presented it here.

I think for a first year organization these numbers are very strong...I'm interested in seeing if other clubs join JVDA in the 2nd year or if clubs jump ship and go back to USAV completely. Next years raw data will be even be more interesting (and statistically relevant) to me.

groupguy

A few questions

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Posts: 102

(07/09/08 10:27 AM)

A. Anyone have any report from the JVDA Town Hall meeting?
B. Where will next year JVDA season-ending event will be?
C. Are there anti-trust issues that could determine:
* If you have to join JVDA or USAV to be in a power league- seems that would be OK;
* If someone could prevent you from joining JVDA or USAV to be in a power league (I'm thinking this would be a consitutional right to assemble kind of issue, so I can't imagine anyone making this stick);
* If you join USAV and JVDA and play JVDA only can you still get insurance (a requirement for USAV insurance being you have to actually play in a USAV event- seems that could be OK)
D. How many girls junior volleyball clubs are there total, estimating;
E. Is there a time period for JVDA membership? i.e., is it calendar year, or 12 months from time of signup?
F. Any idea on cost of insurance for an organization like JVDA? Given my experience with insurance, this would seem to be a significantly large enough pool that getting insurance would not be a problem, nor would it cost much different than USAV.

Just some more topics of discussion for those interested in this topic. I hope the rift gets healed sooner than later.

relativeyoungster

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Posts: 878

(07/09/08 11:05 AM)

groupguy wrote:

E. Is there a time period for JVDA membership? i.e., is it calendar year, or 12 months from time of signup?

Isn't this like AVCA membership--a year at a time?

olddblueeyes

Hmmm....

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Posts: 84

(07/09/08 11:10 AM)

I think for a first year organization these numbers are very strong...I'm interested in seeing if other clubs join JVDA in the 2nd year or if clubs jump ship and go back to USAV completely. Next years raw data will be even be more interesting (and statistically relevant) to me.

...and it's a post like this that got my blood a flowin when I first read the EI post. A little knowledge is indeed a dangerous thing. To read just the raw (or refined) data without a discussion point of what the writer is attempting to say does indeed leave us all to draw our own and, in many cases, incorrect conclusions. Your post is a perfect example of any conclusion that the JVDA is having an impact on JRVB when in reality it's little more than a fly on the behind of an elephant. (OK EI, here's my "stuff", have at it no hard feelings regardless ).

JVDA Club Demographics:

California	26
Illinois	21
Texas	18
Florida	15
Indiana	15
Michigan	15
Wisconsin	10
Colorado	8
Missouri	8
Ohio	8
Minnesota	6
Pennsylvania	6
Virginia	6
Hawaii	5
Kentucky	5
Louisiana	4
Nebraska	4
Alabama	3
Arizona	3
Georgia	3
North Carolina	3
New Mexico	3
New York	3
Tennessee	3
New Jersey	2
Oregon	2
Arkansas	1
Connecticut	1
Delaware	1
Iowa	1
Kansas	1
Maryland	1
Oklahoma	1
Rhode Island	1
South Carolina	1
Utah	1
Washington	1
West Virginia	1

TOTAL 217

*In California alone there are an ~330 registered USAV Clubs. That's 113 more than JVDA's total membership both active (JVDA teams that played JVDA) and non-active (JVDA teams that only signed-up as members). The 26 CA clubs that have membership in JVDA equals 8% of the total CA clubs. A quick glance at this list noted that the vast majority of the 26 CA teams where in Dallas, not Louisville.

* In the second JVDA hotspot of Illinois (21 member clubs) there are ~100 registered USAV Clubs (Great Lakes Region alone not counting the Gateway Teams.)

*In JVDA's third highest membership area of Texas (counting only Lone Star and North Texas, not West Texas since it's in another region) there are (again) ~330 registered USAV Clubs. JVDA membership represents 5% of the total clubs in Texas.

(Note: Information and estimates of USAV registered clubs was gleaned from regional websites. May be off a little as in some case it was a pain-staking task to count due to the number of registered club which is also why I just did it for the Top-3.)

Closing discussion: After 12-years in JV, all at the Open Level as parent, coach, director...as I review the JVDA membership there are a vast majority of clubs that I've never heard of, but the same can be said for the USAV membership. Both have some quality teams, neither has a overwhelming edge, and both have a majority of club-level teams within their membership. JVDA may continue to pull clubs but at the same times clubs will return to USAV. Regardless of the ratio, USAV will exist, expand and prevail...and I'm guessing going to make it very difficult for JVDA to survive as in pulling insurance coverage...typical David and Goliath scenario but Goliath wins the rematch. I still look for and early settlement of a couple of "key" JVDA clubs getting an NQ.

XAsstCoach

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Posts: 233

(07/09/08 7:38 PM)

olddblueeyes wrote:
I still look for and early settlement of a couple of "key" JVDA clubs getting an NQ.

Would be interesting if this turns out to be true!

Torami

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Posts: 724

(07/10/08 9:18 AM)

XAsstCoach wrote:

olddblueeyes wrote:
I still look for and early settlement of a couple of "key" JVDA clubs getting an NQ.

Would be interesting if this turns out to be true!

It takes a very cynical view, one which states it is all about money, to believe this. If the primary motive of the founding clubs of the JVDA had been to obtain NQ licenses, they would have kept marching to the USAV drumbeat and supported the expansion of the number of NQs. They instead chose to go their own way, because the key issue is -not- money for the clubs (the key JVDA clubs do pretty darned well), but the Open qualification process. So long as JVDA maintains its critical mass, there is much greater equilibrium with the rift in place than without it. The key is whether JVDA is able to create enough geographic diversity to both satisfy its active membership and grow. Don't hold your breath waiting for those NQ awards to JVDA clubs, blueeyes, or I think your face will get as blue as your eyes. :^)

(note that last comment is all in good fun!)

bigdig

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Posts: 46

(07/10/08 10:32 AM)

A point not discussed is "one" of the reasons JDVA started.

Lack of representation on USAV board for anyone from girls volleyball.

The largest majority of funding for USAV comes from girls volleyball....at least 85% and maybe as much as over 90%. All this money funds national teams both mens and womans and other international teams.

The problem was there was hardly any board representation from the girls side on the board and when attempted to rectify this USAV would not comply. From a straight business stand point, if one of your customers provided the majority of your revenue would you not listen to them or take thier point of view into consideration?

Phaedrus

bigdig

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Posts: 2041

(07/10/08 10:53 AM)

Junior contribution to the USAV is big but not as high as 85%. Don't forget that the USAV gets funding from USOC for winning medals and beach volleyball has consistently earned medals at the Olympics.

The shakeup of the board was pretty much demanded by the USOC in order to simplify the board. I think with all the constitutencies accounted for, the old USAV board needed a small ball room to accomodate everyone and to meet. It has been whittled down to 12. At least three of these seats are taken up by media advisors and others who are affiliated with television or sports marketing of some kind. The AVP is represented of course, because they were going to file for recognition as the representative body for beach volleyball in the USA if they weren't represented, which meant that the USAV would not be getting that check from the USOC for medals earned. This also account for the sudden beach volleyball development spending within USAV.

I think the USAV, in the face of the two actions, shaking up the board and the potential loss of beach money, decided to take juniors for granted, seeing the juniors constituency as a captive audience. Hence only one seat for junior volleyball and the progressive pricing pressures on the junior qualifiers and nationals.

olddblueeyes

Hmm..

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Posts: 84

(07/10/08 11:16 AM)

...enjoying the verbal debate and banter and never an offense taken. Two quick questions:

In reference to my previous post, there were an ~700 USAV registered teams in the three states noted.

Question 1: How many of those clubs, coaches, parents, players have, would you conjecture, any idea in regard to the existence of USAV National, much less the organizational structure including the coveted Seats on the Board?

If your answer to Question 1 is correct in that it's "Very few", the follow-up question is:

Question 2: Why are the "very few" demanding seats, representation and change while the vast majority could give a ratz behind? Is it indeed because of wanting to push the agenda of the very few (the elite teams, teams that travel, clubs for profit) over the agenda of the vast majority that are elated with what they now have to the point of ignorant bliss where NQs, Nationals, travel and representation on a baord are not even on their radar?

Question 2:

expertidiot

Where JVDA members played, Part 4

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Posts: 325

(07/10/08 11:25 AM)

Did you know....

There are 26 charter member clubs of the JVDA.

19 of them only sent teams to the JVDA Championships.

4 of them only sent teams to the USAV Championships.
(A5, Colorado Juniors, M1, Texas Tornados)

3 of them sent teams to both the JVDA and USAV Championships
(TCA, Texas Advantage, Willowbrook)

Torami

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Posts: 724

(07/10/08 11:43 AM)

Equating ignorance with bliss is a leap of logic, blueeyes. The fact that most people don't take the time to educate themselves on the inner workings of their daughter's sport does not imply those folks are happy with the status quo. Talk to the parents writing the checks, and you will find that, while they may not realize they are funding the national team, and may have never heard of the JVDA, they are very much aware that costs and travel requirements have escalated beyond reasonableness.

Hey EI... since you have the data at hand... did Sunshine back out of the JVDA championships? At one point they had at least one team signed up for Louisville (and were well represented in Dallas), but maybe it was "backup" in case they didn't get an open bid.

bigdig

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Posts: 46

(07/10/08 11:46 AM)

Phaedrus,

Thanks for your insight.

What percentage of USAV revenue comes from junior girls volleyball?

Torami

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Posts: 724

(07/10/08 11:58 AM)

bigdig... The exact percentage can't be nailed down using only publicly available information. I did an analysis of the USAV tax return for 2005, and found that 20% of revenues were from membership fees, the bulk of which are from junior girls. 50% came from competitions and clinics, the bulk of which are also junior girls. It certainly wouldn't be unreasonable to estimate that well over 50% of USAV revenues are derived from junior girls volleyball. 65% of that revenue went to the National Team, 13% to the HP program, 15% to insurance and the magazine, and 7% to development programs.

Some may have more precise information.

expertidiot

Torami...

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Posts: 325

(07/10/08 12:37 PM)

Torami wrote:
Hey EI... since you have the data at hand... did Sunshine back out of the JVDA championships? At one point they had at least one team signed up for Louisville (and were well represented in Dallas), but maybe it was "backup" in case they didn't get an open bid.

The information I have shows that Sunshine sent 8 teams to JVDA and 6 teams to USAV.

JVDA
Sunshine 12 Crimson
Sunshine 12 Orange
Sunshine 13 Silver
Sunshine 13 Steel
Sunshine 14 Diamond
Sunshine 14 Gold
Sunshine 15 Elite
Sunshine 16 Elite

USAV
Sunshine 13 Crimson
Sunshine 14 Platinum
Sunshine 15 Sunshine
Sunshine 16 Sunshine
Sunshine 17 Sunshine
Sunshine 18 Hot Shots

Torami

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Posts: 724

(07/10/08 12:47 PM)

Thats pretty interesting. It looks like they sent their top-placing team in each age group to USAV, even if that was in one of club divisions, and sent other teams to the JVDA tourney. I'm wondering if any of the teams that went to Louisville qualified for Dallas but didn't accept the bid. Would take some digging to fgure that out.

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