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JVDA Championships - In Reality . . .

Author	Comment
coachemeritus	JVDA Championships - In Reality . . .	Lead	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 161 (05/22/08 7:14 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Tags : None I've looked over the impressive list of teams / clubs attending - - - - - in reality, isn't the JVDA championships nothing more than a summer regional national qualifier? Looking at teams from other parts of the country attending, many if not most of those teams from top clubs are those teams who did not qualify for JOs. As I recall, the USFL also had a championship. Same for the old ABA and AHL. Diluting the mix doesn't hurt the elite, just the rest. Last Edited By: coachemeritus 05/22/08 7:16 PM. Edited 1 time.
groupguy		#1	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 111 (05/22/08 7:20 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	If you want to call a tournament with the defending national champions (and consensus number one) in 18s and more Open-level teams at each age than any other qualifier (or perhaps combination of 2 qualifiers, or AAUs) that.... I think it's open to all comers this year in order to demonstrate the JVDA has the logistical ability to accomodate the kind of large field one would see at USAV nationals....
tmoe58		#2	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 16 (05/22/08 7:58 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	The reason it's open to all comers is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$
VolleyballFan13		#3	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 695 (05/22/08 8:10 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	coachemeritus wrote: I've looked over the impressive list of teams / clubs attending - - - - - in reality, isn't the JVDA championships nothing more than a summer regional national qualifier? A qualifier? I don't know that I would go to that extreme. Here is what will be missing from JOs this year (and those at JVDA). 18 Open Field: missing from this year's field are eight teams that finished in the top 16 in last year's 17 open field (50% of the top 16 teams in case someone needed help with the math) plus the SPVB 18 Elite team that won last year at 18 with a ton of 17s. Of the 8 in the top 16 last year, 5 of them were in the top eight (62.5%). 17 Open Field: missing from this field are six teams that finished in the top sixteen (37.5%) and two that were in the top eight in 16 Open last year (25%). 16 Open Field: missing from this year's field are five teams that finished in the top sixteen (31.3%) and three that were in the top eight in 15 Open last year (37.5%) 15 Open Field: missing from this year's field are five teams that finished in the top sixteen last year (31.3%) and three that were in the top eight in 14 Open last year (37.5%) 14 Open Field: missing from this year's field are six teams that finished in the top sixteen in 13 National last year (37.5%) and three that finished in the top eight in 13 National last year (37.5%). So a minimum of 30% of the top teams in an age group and a maximum of 63%, I would say it is better than the average qualifier.
JTawa		#4	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 14063 (05/22/08 8:23 PM) Administrator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Personally, I don't give a crap which has a stronger field. I care that we cannot have one place where ALL the strongest teams play.
Noreaster	?	#5	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 269 (05/22/08 10:19 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	John, Why? I admit that may sound like a dumb question but I'm curious to hear your answer.
VBinCP		#6	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 371 (05/22/08 10:36 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I think that the answer is obvious....separation in the sport just as it was in the 1860's of our nation, is not beneficial for anyone. It is unfortunate that this fracture had to take place. Those being effected the most are the kids. I have seen this in Softball where there are so many "championships" that each is nothing more than a regional title with the label "world series champion" attached. So many different organizations there, that was the main reason we chose to focus on this sport.
bluknight		#7	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 660 (05/23/08 5:27 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I agree with John and VBinCP. It seems that both sides are unwilling to compromise. JVDA wants this and USAV wants that etc. I would like to see some cooperation and I'm sure they've been down there before, but I feel a lot of those sticking points are a matter of self-control and exercising fiscal responsibility. Club Directors have a choice to do those things we piss and moan about already. Examples of these choices: Shortening the season Reducing cost Raising the level of participation at the Grass Roots Level
kiserrick	Dump Question?	#8	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 78 (05/23/08 12:51 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	The reason it is a dumb question is that we have ALL been advocates of great competition and great Volleyball. How can anyone brag about being a National Champion this year. When my team won 18Club in 2006 there was no denying that we were National Champs because there were 47 other teams from across the nation that earned the right to fight for the title. EVERYONE wants to see the best teams square off for the REAL National Championship. I'm with John, I don't give a holy crap regarding which "so called" national championship is consider the best. All I know is that both them are tainted this year and deserve an *. No question, JDVA is doing a great job at whatever they think they are doing. USA Volleyball is doing a great job at whatever they think they are doing....I'm confident that there are kids in both organizations that are thriving and are happy.....If that is all that matters then things are just swell aren't they?
relativeyoungster	JVDA/USAV	#9	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 887 (05/23/08 3:55 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	bluknight wrote: I agree with John and VBinCP. It seems that both sides are unwilling to compromise. JVDA wants this and USAV wants that etc. My understanding was that the JVDA tried to work within the system prior to the formation of the JVDA... Heck, Z was director of the HP program, prior to becoming the president of the JVDA.... I'm pretty sure neither organization is 100% correct in their thinking....so compromise would be a solution. But the two sides are SSSSOOOOOOO far apart on some things, it may not be possible. Some of the things that the JVDA want have unintended consequences......less travel means that you play the same teams more often. Especially if you are located on one of the "edges" of the JVDA "sphere of influence".... At the same time, USAV's junior volleyball representation on the new board alignment doesn't leave me feeling warm and fuzzy either.....quite the opposite. At the end of the day, everyone loses. The players don't get as much variety in opponents, and don't get to decide things on the floor. College coaches lose because it may either mean more travel or less # of players seen..... or both. this is also a whammy for the players who want to play in college, because you may not be seen by as many coaches. Does this mean the JVDA was wrong to start their movement? I don't necessary think so....their ideas and tournaments have been really thought provoking, with more change in a year than I've seen in the 7 previous years I was involved with USAV. The next two years will be telling. Will USAV allow the JVDA to continue to run tournaments with USAV insurance? and will they restrict them to avoid competition with qualifiers and JOs? How will the JVDA respond to this? How will the JVDA structure their year end tournament? Will any of the developmental programs the JVDA is advocating come to pass (Volleytots, facility development, power league development)? Can they make their plan a reality? Will USAV increase from 9 qualifiers to the planned 12? and reduce the # of open bids to 2? Do clubs get the other 3 qualifiers? Regions? Where are they? We're seeing two different visions of the future...which one will come to pass.....to quote an old song from my HS days......"Right here, right now, there is no other place I'd rather be..." These opinions are my own, and DO NOT represent either those of my club or the school where I coach....
Noreaster		#10	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 269 (05/23/08 11:20 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	VBinCP made 2 important contributions here. He's right, that youth softball and baseball do not have just one national championship. I'd suggest that college sports are in the same boat, not having just one championship (DI, II, III, NAIA I, II, JuCo I, II, III, NCCAA, USCAA and that doesn't count Canadian colleges). We can say we know who is the national champion is but do we? Who says the best golfer or fencer in the country isn't at an NAIA school or a JuCo? The US high jump coach a few years ago (maybe still) was at DIII Wheaton and had some of the top jumpers in the country going there to work with him. In volleyball, I think it was 1998 or 99 when Arizona's men's club team was like 60-2 with losses to US national champion BYU and Canadian National Champion Winnipeg (or Manitoba, whoever won up there). Who is to say they might not have faired better in a rematch with BYU for the title? Heck, even if we had everybody in one tournament, who can say with any certainty that the 2007 Volleyball Huskers were't the best volleyball team this past year, and they didn't even make the final four! VBinCP's second contribution was using the phrase "the kids" because that is really what this is all about and maybe the kids are being hurt, but I'm not clear on how. And this touches on kiserrick's point. Do you believe that the girls in Louisville are not going to play as hard to win as the girls in Dallas? Will the girls in Dallas not celebrate their championship without SPRI and KiVA there? Will their not be tears and hugs and pictures at the end of JO's, and JVDA's and Festival? If their isn't room for the JVDA, and festival and the invitational (which was only cut because nobody would play in June, after they moved it up) and 2 more end of the year "Championships" then tell me why there is room for National and American Divisions? If its all about the championship, then lets just have a championship and dump the sideshow. If National and American are ok because they are in the same place? Would the JVDA be more palatable if they were in the same facility as JO's? I didn't think that was the point, but hey, it would make recruiting easier. Or do we want to see these teams play because, as fans, we don't want to miss Northern Lights 16's vs. Fusion 16's, and SPRI 18's vs SCVC 18's? If so, I'm with you 100%, but that is about adults, not about the kids. For the record, I have nothing to do with the JVDA. I am, however, fascinated with the opposition to it and would love to get an answer as to why there is such sentiment.
BeachVballBoy		#11	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 50 (05/24/08 7:01 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Adults often ruin or lead to distractions in athletics for children. It appears this the case here. My opinion is both side want it their way only.
Star		#12	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 141 (05/24/08 8:51 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Guys just let it go. The JVDA organization has provided and tried to work with USAV regarding certain changes that they feel are required for the betterment of the sport. These are people that have been around since the infancy ages of JO ball. USAV has choosen not to listen so the JVDA community has decided for now to have a Championship. Does this mean that the JVDA organization is not going to try to represent the interests of their membership? Absolutly not! They will continue to work as hard as they can to see if USVA at least listens to them. If not who know what will happen in the future. At least you should feel good that a group of folks are willing to speak up and ask for improvments while the rest of us are just going with the flow......doing nothing. Star
VolleyDad9	Change	#13	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 1551 (05/24/08 9:16 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	These are people that have been around since the infancy ages of JO ball. The qualifying process hasn't changed. The costs have always been higher than other sports due to the facilities issue. The season has gotten longer in recent years, but JVDA really hasn't addressed that issue anyway. Soooo...what has prompted the need for change? Fun? You mean Volleyball is supposed to be fun?? Last Edited By: VolleyDad9 05/24/08 9:18 AM. Edited 1 times.
Ustuplay		#14	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 22 (05/24/08 9:24 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	It's hard to see how the division between USAV and JVDA is affecting many kids at all. The only issue that I see in doubt is who is the true national champion and that isn't a concern for any of but a handful of teams. Our coach and club decides how often the teams play and how far to travel, the goal is to develop the teams potential. We were always were able to find competition either in local tournaments or when we traveled. If we thought getting our butts kicked in tournament play would be important for the team, we knew which tournament or division to enter. All your decisions are based on how serious the competition is and whether its worth the expense. It seems to me the kids are actually benefitting by having choices of tournaments. If you're a director, you'll eventually figure out which tournaments are better for your teams. And its similar to the decisions parents make for their kids, it will be based on the value you get for the money you spend. For everyone but the top tier teams, there's always some competition in a tournament. Even division champions can have a loss in tournament play. Some teams don't play nationals because of the expense or how it extends the season. Let them make their own choices. Be glad they have choices. We've had plenty of choices, most of them worked out, and we had a great season.
groupguy	Not true, pay attention	#15	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 111 (05/24/08 9:38 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	The qualifying process hasn't changed. I think the USAV proposal that broke the camel's back was going from 9 qualifiers to 12, with only 2 open bids/qualifier and no at-large chance to qualify. Not sure where the extra 3 qualifiers were to be, but it would stand to reason that could have been an issue as well. While the actual affect on 98% of club volleyball players (and 99.8% of HS-age volleyball players) is negligible, I hope the two get back together, as split titles (WBA, WBF, IBA in boxing, for example) are never as much fun.
Torami		#16	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 733 (05/24/08 9:50 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	VolleyDad9 wrote: These are people that have been around since the infancy ages of JO ball. The qualifying process hasn't changed. <snip> Soooo...what has prompted the need for change? By most accounts, the 'final straw' was USAV approving a change to add qualifiers and reduce the Open bids at each tournament, something that would certainly increase travel for those teams choosing to pursue an Open bid. USAV has not yet implemented that change, and some have said they are reconsidering it, but I haven't seen any formal statement or minutes to that effect. I would consider what they approved to be a material change in the qualifying process, one that goes in the wrong direction, and one that ignores input from the community. It is hard not to read it as a simple play for more money, that would primarily benefit USAV and a couple of host clubs. Considering it was (from anecdotal comments only) likely that one of the JVDA clubs would have become hosts of an additional qualifier, I, for one, give JVDA more altruistic 'cred' than USAV on this particular issue.
Phaedrus	Some points	#17	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 2063 (05/24/08 7:28 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Torami is right, the straw that broke the camel's back was when USAV proposed expanding the qualifiers to 12 from 9 and decreasing the per qualifier open bid to 2. The reason this matters is because USAV has built the junior nationals to such a point that the open championship does actually crown the best junior team in the country. As it stands right now, the top teams are traveling to to 3-4 qualifiers in order to try to qualify, hedging their bets. The outlay for each tournament is one thing, the attendant travel expenses are going through the roof. The argument then is that no one has to qualify open, that the choice belongs to the teams and that no one is holding a gun to their heads to play in all those qualifiers. Which then explains the JVDA. Its true, they don't have to travel to qualify, they don't have to qualify. One proposal is to make the open and club bids more spread out amongst the qualifiers or make them available through interregional competitions that aren't national qualifiers, i.e. have a series of tournaments within each geographic area and then feeding the winners to a tournament similar to a qualifier but much smaller. The travel would be limited to within reasonable driving distances. One reason this was not attractive is because the USAV does not run the qualifers, some constituent, either large club teams or regions run them and the profit goes straight to them. The work is not easy so I don't begrudge them the profits. As nationals is structured right now, junior volleyball is an upper middle class sport, where the family has to make financial sacrifices to pay for volleyball. It is their choice of course,but by virtue of that situation, we are missing out on a large pool of talent becauise they can't pay for volleyball, instead of driving the sport into the grass roots, we are receding along class lines. Someone accused the JVDA of doing it for the money. I am sure there are financial rewards for this, but it would be much more profitable for them to not roc the boat because they are sticking their necks out. A lot of the leadership of the JVDA are people who were around at the very beginning where the prevalence of players and tournaments were but a fraction of what exists today. they have had their ramen days so they have paid their dues. But let us examine the USAV. A few years ago, the NIVC was inaugurated. There were no qualification process, just writing a check gets you in. Why? Because the USAV saw the JO checks sent in by the teams that did not qualify being returned to the clubs and thought that it would be great to have a post-season tournament and cash those checks. Even though they knew full well that most of those teams plays in the AAU, Asics in Chicago, the Indy Cup, etc. The difference is that everyone else gets to cach those checks and not USAV. Others have done a good job summarizing why that tournament died its ignominious death. As I understand the USAV proposal now, the idea is for teams to accrue points through playing in qualifiers and power leagues, and certain large non-USAV tournaments, such as the new JVDA events. From the point totals the teams can have a quantifiable result to show in order to qualify for the nationals. The points are coming from finishes and not just for participation. Unfortunately, the USAV has also told the JVDA that if they want their tournaments to count they need to give the USAV a cut of the registration fee, AND they are not allowed to hold the JVDA tournaments within 750 miles radius from a qualifier. Considering that the plans are for 12 qualifiers, the USAV is basically telling the JVDA to go pound sand with regard to running interregional tournaments. So the USAV giveth and taketh away. To JT's point, yes we all would want to have a single national championship, but but JT is thinking in terms of the competition model, whereas the USAV is thinking in terms of the profit model. The loss of the JVDA teams mean nothing because there are enough other teams who are willing to pay the money to play in the qualifiers and nationals. By what I saw in qualifiers this year, the level of play is much less uniform than previous years but the number of teams does not seem to be lacking, so as far as the USAV is concerned, they have no problems.
VolleyballFan13	750 miles, that doesn't leave much.	#18	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 695 (05/24/08 10:12 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	they are not allowed to hold the JVDA tournaments within 750 miles radius from a qualifier. Wow, by my calculations, that would leave Key West, Florida (~800 miles from Atlanta), Alaska and Hawaii. I couldn't find another location in the US that was outside the 750 radius. I tried Montana, North Dakota, Maine, Idaho, etc. Couldn't find any locations that would be outside this parameter - at least according to Google Maps. So, as long as the JVDA has their tourneys in Key West, Hawaii or Alaska, they can count toward the USAV proposed qualifying process? I am interpreting what you are saying correctly? If so, do they have playing facilities in Key West? Well, at the least the parents would have a roaring good time down there. Last Edited By: VolleyballFan13 05/25/08 7:21 AM. Edited 2 times.
relativeyoungster		#19	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 887 (05/27/08 5:41 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Phaedrus wrote: Torami is right, the straw that broke the camel's back was when USAV proposed expanding the qualifiers to 12 from 9 and decreasing the per qualifier open bid to 2. The reason this matters is because USAV has built the junior nationals to such a point that the open championship does actually crown the best junior team in the country. As it stands right now, the top teams are traveling to to 3-4 qualifiers in order to try to qualify, hedging their bets. The outlay for each tournament is one thing, the attendant travel expenses are going through the roof. The argument then is that no one has to qualify open, that the choice belongs to the teams and that no one is holding a gun to their heads to play in all those qualifiers. Which then explains the JVDA. Its true, they don't have to travel to qualify, they don't have to qualify. Not only to have more qualifiers, but to have even more divisions at nationals. 3 levels of nationals with qualifiers bids, and an additional 3 levels of nationals with bids from the regions. So 6 total levels, in place of the 3 we have now.
VolleyDad9		#20	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 1551 (05/27/08 3:37 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Is any of this information about things USAV is/was planning to do available online somewhere? This is the first I have heard about other levels/divisions. I had heard about additional qualifiers and it is my understanding that one will be added next year. Has anyone heard where? Fun? You mean Volleyball is supposed to be fun??