I know that in Indiana there is a limit of 3 players per High School program that can compete together on any one club team. How many other states have a
limit? It appears by looking at the 15's ranking, that Kentucky doesn't have such a limit...and I am pretty sure Illinois has no limit. How do you
think this affects the profile of a club and the strength of a club?
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What states limit the number of players on a club team?
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 VBinCP |
What states limit the number of players on a club team? |
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Posts: 360 (05/15/08 12:28 PM) |
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Karl |
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Posts: 21 (05/15/08 12:53 PM) |
Who is this rule protecting or intending to help? That would completely stifle the growth and participation of some high school players as entire teams and
clubs in Minnesota are comprised of kids that all go to the same high school. I run a 4 team club that has no participants that do not attend a different high
school.
We are required to have open tryouts, and anyone is welcome to tryout for our club, the tryout date and info is clearly and publicly posted, but it seems bizarre to limit the number of kids allowed to play on the same team from any one specific high school. How do community based JO teams such as ours skirt this rule in Indiana? Or do they just cooperate? How are the teams picked if they do? Who administers this? Wow, I am definately interested in the details of this as I wasn't even aware that this rule existed. It seems contrived and goofy from my perspective. Karl |
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VBinCP |
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Posts: 360 (05/15/08 1:03 PM) |
The IHSAA feels that not allowing players to play together will give the player a chance for life away from their high school coach I guess? I am not sure. All
I do know is if you play at any level of High School ball (Frosh, JV or Varsity) A club can only place 3 players from that High School on any one club.
Furthermore, no High School Coach (of any level) is allowed to coach his or her own player during club.
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OhioVballParent |
Same in Ohio | ||
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Posts: 107 (05/15/08 1:15 PM) |
It's the same way in Ohio. The OHSAA limits the number of players from a HS team to 3 for a club team. Your HS coach cannot be your club coach. |
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Karl |
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Registered Member
Posts: 21 (05/15/08 1:25 PM) |
Just a fantastic job by the IHSAA deciding whom teenage girls should spend time with on sports teams during the winter and how to define her "life away
from her high school" and what it should/should not entail.
I understand the no high school coaching rule. I think that is well thought out and important. In Minnesota, a 10th, JV or Varsity coach cannot coach or instruct (private lesson, clinc etc...) a player that participated in the same high school program as that coach. It is legal for a high school coach to coach players of the same program provided they did not play on the 10th, JV or Varsity team. (7th, 8th or 9th grade team players would all be OK to coach during JO's). This is fair (I understand the inherent danger of Varsity coaches mandating where the kids go play JO's) and extremely useful from a Varsity head coaches' perspective as you can then coach a JO team comprised of the promising 9th graders in your program during the JO season (Trust me, they are never "forced" to play on this team, they happily come to tryouts for a chance to play on Armstrong 15-1's after the 9th grade high school season). It is a critical development tool in my program, and something I will continue to implement in the years to come. Ya know, unless Minnesota and Indiana apply for joint statehood and adopt the ISHAA rules. |
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tsalcido |
Perhaps.... | ||
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Posts: 35 (05/15/08 1:53 PM) |
Let me play devil's advocate for a bit... Lets say a club has a very close relationship to a HS and while the HS coaches can't coach the HS age girls he/she coaches the lower level. Some may
feel that it is in their best interest to play for the club or it may hurt them during the school season.
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Karl |
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Posts: 21 (05/15/08 2:13 PM) |
Tsalcido wrote:
Let me play devil's advocate for a bit... Lets say a club has a very close relationship to a HS and while the HS coaches can't coach the HS age girls he/she coaches the lower level. Some may feel that it is in their best interest to play for the club or it may hurt them during the school season. Karl wrote: Agreed, the HS coach influencing or mandating where a player from his program should go play JO's should be policed. That is uncool. However - my thoughts are the 3 player limit is a wierdo way to do it. Policy should be addressing the innapropriate behaviors of a high school coach, not how many kids can be on a JO team becuase of where they go to high school. Just my $0.02. Or perhaps that the HS coach may have influence (coaching from the sidelines) on where the girls play, who starts, etc... Karl wrote: Then this coach needs a reality check. Coaching a team from the sidelines during a JO match is completely berzerko and more than a bit control freakish. Also, if I were the coach of a JO team, and the HS coach of one of my players was attempting to "influence" who I was starting or where I was playing them, I would definately have issue with that high school coach. Even if that HS coach was a friend of mine or well respected in the area. I would probably use the phrase "Coach - you are being a complete nincompoop right now, please let me coach the team to the best of my abilites" or something similar. Not saying this is why it is but perhaps a concern they have. If this was the case wouldn't the rule be a good thing? Karl wrote: tsalcido - you have a very valid point that HS coaches should not influence their players during the JO season. I think we are all in agreement there. I just happen to think that by limiting the inclusion on JO teams to 3 players from any given high school is akin to say - trying to curb the increase of milk prices by mandating cow farmers to ship their milk via horse and carriage as to save on transportation fuel costs. Yes, it's adressing the issue, but it is a really odd way to do it.
Last Edited By: Karl
05/15/08 2:29 PM.
Edited 1 times.
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loganpkbt |
Washington | ||
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Posts: 585 (05/15/08 2:36 PM) |
does not have this limit. I recall teams that are basically a schools high school team but the high school coach if coaching club may not coach any of their
own players.
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SSVB DAD |
Florida | ||
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Posts: 127 (05/15/08 2:45 PM) |
I believe FHSAA recently changed the rule to now allow high school coaches to coach their players/team in the off season as they were experiencing a coach
shortage in multiple sports - both a shortage of high school coaches and club coaches
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HuskyVbFan |
Re: Washington | ||
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Posts: 1392 (05/15/08 3:41 PM) |
loganpkbt wrote: Washington actually goes further than most in limiting the coaches: you cannot have anyone on your team that goes to your school or to a middle school/junior high that feeds into your school. So high school coaches are very limited in coaching a local team.
They either have to coach 12s team, coach for a club that is a ways away from their home, or limit the team to players other than their school. I have seen all
three approaches. The last one can be an unfair burden on players as some clubs will make the roster fit the coach, not the coaches fit the roster. This can
mean either forcing a player to play up or cutting a player in favor of keeping the coach.
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VolleyDad9 |
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Posts: 1523 (05/15/08 4:29 PM) |
Texas is the same as Washington. Can't coach kids in your attendance zone starting at the middle school level. Many of the Varsity coaches here coach 18s
as that is legal because they have finished their high school "career" when the 18s club season begins.
Fun? You mean Volleyball is supposed to be fun??
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ixxxl |
Missouri VS North Carolina | ||
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Posts: 59 (05/15/08 5:45 PM) |
I honestly believe that although this rule is well intentioned and supposed to prevent a certain school from gaining an advantage by playing with each other
throughout the off season, all it really does is hurt the small towns and more rural areas in the long haul. Those areas cannot have club teams unless they
find some players from outside their area that are willing to make the commute.
In Missouri it was formerly that only 5 girls could play on the same club team but I believe that changed 2 years ago. A high school coach or assistant coach cannot coach anyone who will be attending that High School at all in the next calender year ( so can only coach 12's, 13's, or 18's.) Also rules about a high school and club not being allowed to share any of the same equiptment (unless its rented through the school etc..) Then I moved to North Carolina where I believe it is still 5 but a coach can coach them but only during certain non-'dead periods' which I havent bothered to clarify yet but it seemed like they definately interefered with but did not wholy prevent a coach from coaching their own players in club. |
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Nebraska Nostradamus |
NE | ||
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Posts: 350 (05/15/08 6:28 PM) |
The rule in Nebraska is that the HS coach cannot have more then 4 players on the team. The HS coach can coach the 4 players but no more.
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VB ALL 1 |
IL | ||
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Posts: 373 (05/15/08 7:40 PM) |
Last Edited By: VB ALL 1
05/15/08 7:43 PM.
Edited 1 times.
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VB ALL 1 |
IL | ||
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Posts: 373 (05/15/08 7:41 PM) |
In Illinois, a HS coach can have up to 3 players from the same school on his/her club team. This does not prevent the players to all play for the same team as
long as that team's coaches are not associated with the HS. There are a few clubs set up in this manner in this Region. IMHO, it is better for a player to
learn different ways and expanding your horizons dealing with others from different schools.
Last Edited By: VB ALL 1
05/16/08 12:14 AM.
Edited 1 times.
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FurBall |
Like Who? | ||
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Posts: 38 (05/15/08 8:31 PM) |
"Many of the Varsity coaches here coach 18s as that is legal because they have finished their high school
"career" when the 18s club season begins."
Most of the varsity coaches in North Texas ignore club volleyball, even though that's where most of their players get great coaching and development (OK, don't pile on, I realize not all clubs and coaches are good). My kiddo gets more out of 1 month of club than she ever did in 4 months of H.S. coaching. What varsity coaches in Texas also coach club 18's? Just curious, maybe I'm just not seeing it. |
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NYvbc |
No rules in NY | ||
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Posts: 147 (05/15/08 10:29 PM) |
New York has no rules regarding club and high school relationships. There are a number of clubs here that are basically the high school teams playing year
around with the same coaches. Having moved from the very restricted environment in Texas, I found it strange. I still feel it's not good for the players,
who often feel compelled to play for their high school's club team even though they would probably be better off playing for another coach at a different
club.
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Noreaster |
not just unlimited | ||
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Posts: 262 (05/16/08 1:01 AM) |
To build on what NYvbc is saying about high school based clubs, their are leagues in NY that have rules on that, but really local clubs are the standard.
Now, not only does the NYSPHAA not restrict the number of athletes from one school, but the way the schools are insured, and with demands on gym time many schools REQUIRE that as many as 85% of the particpants be from that district or you can't get the gym to practice or play. And in NY, except for the 5 big cities, the districts are based around 1 high school, unlike other states where it is a county school district with 10 high schools.To get gym time some clubs will take a gym and just not report the names of athletes from other districts, other clubs will be open for that district and by invitation from other districts, and some teams can only practice at private schools and colleges. I believe downstate (their own) and Volley FX (hot shots) are the only two clubs using dedicated volleyball facilities. I don't believe that Pennsylvania or New Hampshire have any such restrictions, at least not that I've heard. |
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mavadad42 |
Kentucky rules | ||
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Posts: 66 (05/16/08 7:10 AM) |
In Kentucky, club teams can field as many players from one school as they want. The high school coaches cannot coach a team with any players currently
enrolled in their school, but most of them coach at clubs favored by their student athletes so they see them all year anyway.
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MatrixDad |
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Posts: 15 (05/16/08 8:38 AM) |
Texas does prevent coaching kids in their attendance zone, it doesn't limit the number of players on a team. I have seen teams that were either completely
or almost completely made up of players from the same high school.
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icheer4vb |
Southern states | ||
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Posts: 379 (05/16/08 1:35 PM) |
Alabama has a "50%" rule and does not allow more than 3 VARSITY players on a single club team. However, when you consider the makeup of the average
club team, how many girls of the same age play on the same HS team?
Tennessee has implemented the 50% rule for basketball, softball and baseball. I don't imagine that soccer and volleyball can be far behind. The reasoning is that there is abuse (especially in basketball) to put together "club" teams in the off-season made up of the entire varsity squad of the local HS. Therefore, these girls are playing together all year, the coach exerts pressure on them all year to play off-season with the rest of their teams and we have had mega-teams who win year after year due to that fact that the teams played together year-round for 4 years or more. Coaches, in TN, cannot coach their own players in the off-season. We do have HS coaches as club coaches but generally have either have them at the 18s level or under 14 so a girl doesn't get cut simply because her HS coach is that team's club coach.
"If you obey all the rules, you miss all the fun"
Katherine Hepburn |
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