To "lifeonthesidelines": The 15's will be playing their #5 mandatory this weekend. The Regionals are still two weeks away.
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Differences in National/American
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 CDBVB |
PS | ||
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Registered Member
Posts: 12 (05/12/08 12:03 AM) |
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 VolleyDad9 |
National is correct | ||
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Registered Member
Posts: 1523 (05/12/08 4:42 AM) |
Not sure where you are seeing qualified American, but the order of finish at the SC Qualifier was SG Elite, Nor Cal and then SCVC finished 3rd. SG Elite has an
Open bid from Far Western and Nor Cal already earned a National at the PNQ, therefore SCVC gets the National from the SCQ.
Fun? You mean Volleyball is supposed to be fun??
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expertidiot |
? | ||
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Registered Member
Posts: 327 (05/12/08 6:27 AM) |
NYvbc wrote:You're kidding. What regions would enact such a ridiculous rule? If a team finishes second in a club national qualifier and earns an American bid, are you saying that they wouldn't be allowed to compete in another club national qualifier (and possibly win it, earning a National bid), or are you saying that they wouldn't be allowed to compete in their regional tournament? Either way, that's absurd. What regions have this rule? |
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spectatortot |
Unfortunately it's true | ||
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Registered Member
Posts: 89 (05/12/08 6:48 AM) |
North Texas region has this rule. Once you earn an American bid at a qualifier, you are not allowed to compete in the Regional tournament to try to obtain a
National bid.
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NYvbc |
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Registered Member
Posts: 147 (05/12/08 7:00 AM) |
Garden Empire region also has the rule...
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expertidiot |
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Registered Member
Posts: 327 (05/12/08 7:20 AM) |
Wow. Even at 12's or 13's, where the National division is the highest level at Nationals?
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CDBVB |
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Registered Member
Posts: 12 (05/12/08 3:23 PM) |
To volleyball dad:
I am seeing my information at SCVC website. Girls / Events / Jr Nat. Qual. Then scroll all the way down to the boxes at the bottom: Session #1 Qualified Teams. When I open up that box, I see in the LA Qualifier that SG Elite accepted a national bid. NorCal already had a bid, and SCVC-Nike accepted an American bid. So I think what you are telling me is that SG Elite decided not to accept the National bid (at some point in time) because they already earned an open bid somewhere else? Therefore the National bid trickled down to SCVC ....? I really am trying to understand how this system works... and I am not trying to beat a dead horse. |
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bdaygirl |
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Registered Member
Posts: 7 (05/12/08 3:51 PM) |
How can any region justify forcing a team to play American if they could eventually obtain a National bid? The only reason I can imagine, which is not
justifiable, is for the money.
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lifeonthesidelines |
now I am confused... | ||
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Registered Member
Posts: 383 (05/12/08 4:03 PM) |
VolleyDad9 wrote: I suppose I could look this up but which one of the bids did SG Elite get first? If it was the National at SC, then when they won the Open bid at Reno the
National would not trickle down to SCVC, but would go to the reallocation pool. If they got the Open bid first they
the National would have trickled to SCVC but why the heck were they playing Club in the SCQ after getting an Open bid??? I am all for teams that have
qualified nat/am playing in club for experience or to up their bid but going from club to open?
Thanks for the PS cdvbv--at least that makes sense :-) |
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vbshooter |
National Trickle | ||
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Registered Member
Posts: 23 (05/12/08 4:19 PM) |
From the USAV qualifier results link: http://www.usavolleyball.org/media/juniors/08GJO/08QResults/15C-SCQ.pdf
SG Elite earned a National bid at the SCVA JNQ, and subsequently earned an Open bid at Far Western JNQ. The SCVA National bid trickled to SCVC. SCVCs SCVA JNQ American bid went to the reallocation pool. One reason why some regions don't allow their already qualified American teams to try to earn a National bid at their regionals - it keeps the bid within the region (vs reallocation pool), allowing more of their teams to participate in JO's. |
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lifeonthesidelines |
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Registered Member
Posts: 383 (05/12/08 4:26 PM) |
I always thought that bids only trickled down if one of the winning teams had a pre-existing bid and that it did not matter if they got a higher bid later,
that their bid went to allocation, not the lower bid and a trickle. It would seem like that is going backwards and that it would happen a lot. Many teams get
higher bids later in the season but I was not aware they went back to the first NQ and awarded the bid to another team. If this is in fact the case, then why
not have the American bid trickle down as well? Why does one go into allocation and others do not?
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vbshooter |
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Registered Member
Posts: 23 (05/12/08 5:45 PM) |
Don't know why the American bid doesn't trickle, but it's a USAV rule per the Qualifier Manual
(see below). It may have something to do with limiting the number of earned Club bids at each Qualifier to a maximum of two.
ยท If a team wins either a National or American bid and then an Open bid, either from a Qualifier or through the at-large process, the team must use the Open bid. The National bid will be awarded to the team holding the American bid from the original Qualifier (if an American bid was awarded based on the number of teams entered). The American bid will go to the region reallocation pool. If no team from the Qualifier at which the team earned the Club bid accepts the bid, it will be returned to the pool of reallocation bids. |
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VolleyDad9 |
The Timeline | ||
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Registered Member
Posts: 1523 (05/12/08 6:03 PM) |
At the PNQ on 3/23, NorCal takes Natl bid.
At the SCQ on 3/30, SG Elite takes Natl, SCVC takes Amer At the FWQ on 4/27, SG Elite takes Open bid, their original Natl bid trickles back improving SCVC from Amer to Natl Seems like it is set up to where your bid can improve from American to National, but not from almost to American.
Fun? You mean Volleyball is supposed to be fun??
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VolleyDad9 |
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Registered Member
Posts: 1523 (05/12/08 6:08 PM) |
Lone Star also originally ruled that you could not enter Regionals if you already had a bid of any kind, but several days before that allowed those with
American bids to try to improve their lot. I do not know if any bettered their bid and/or if any kept any others from qualifying. I am thinking probably
not...would have probably been a whole topic with thousands of posts on just that...
Fun? You mean Volleyball is supposed to be fun??
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GopherVBfan |
Differences between allocation of National and American | ||
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Registered Member
Posts: 67 (05/13/08 8:02 AM) |
One point to add to all of this discussion is that the allocation process for giving out National and American bids is completely different (see attachment).
There is one National bid given out to each of the 40 regions plus one at each national qualifier (40+9 for 49). The regional bids technically aren't
guaranteed and that allows the number to end up at 48. The American bids are given out based upon volleyball participation numbers in each region
(along with one for each national qualifier). About half of the regions don't get any American bids while a couple of regions get as many as
four. The USAV has stated that the American bids are meant to reflect the participation in volleyball that occurs in each region. Theoretically, you could
get a region with more bids but weaker teams because a lot of girls play the sport or you could get a region that has very strong teams getting zero bids
because very few girls play the sport in that region.
http://www.usavolleyball.org/media/juniors/08GJO/2007-08GirlsBidAllocation14-18andUnder.pdf |
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Vintense |
Which bid is harder to get? | ||
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Registered Member
Posts: 26 (05/13/08 1:06 PM) |
Thanks GopherVBfan for clarification. Now to upset the apple cart I would like to present the following observation and invite the veterans to educate on
why their is a separation between Open and National and not just head to head competition for one championship to let the cream rise to the top.
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GopherVBfan |
Regional qualifier tells the tale | ||
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Registered Member
Posts: 67 (05/13/08 1:13 PM) |
Granted, it is not easy to finish 1 or 2 in the club division of a national qualifier but the teams in the open division are almost always stronger teams. The
easiest way to tell is look who wins the regional qualifier national bids. If an open team hasn't qualified for open in a national qualifier, they usually
then play in their regional qualifier. Look to see who wins the national bid. It is often a team that has been playing in open division.
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Vintense |
Thanks | ||
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Registered Member
Posts: 26 (05/13/08 1:36 PM) |
Thanks GopherVB, I was planning on reviewing all the bid lists once USAV has them all posted, now I will take it a step further and look at the the Qualifiers
finishes to see if things fall into place once the "regular" season is complete.
The only direct perspective I have is in the OVR 14's where NKYVC Tsunami (a very strong team) which had competed in two Open Qualifiers (MEQ 10th and NL 4th) almost only ended up with an American Bid from the Regional Qualifer (4th) but eventually ended up with an Open At-Large bid but had no chance left of a National Bid. This really got interested in understanding how the whole process works and the risks vs. rewards of what tournaments a team enters and if the whole process is really awarding the best teams the correct bids. |
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bdaygirl |
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Registered Member
Posts: 7 (05/13/08 5:37 PM) |
You have a one in 160 chance of winning a professional golf tournament and a one in 16,000 chance of winning the US amateur tournament. But even if an amateur
golfer could get into a pro tournament I think s/he would have a better time playing among amateurs.
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Vintense |
One perspective | ||
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Registered Member
Posts: 26 (05/13/08 7:50 PM) |
I would think if a golfer, or any competitor, felt they could play with the pro's, or "Open" level if I am getting your point, they would and
many do try to qualify to compete at the highest levels. I guess the consideration of what would constitute a "better time" is going to be subjective
to each individual or team in any sport to determine at what level they want to participate.
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