You do see the difference, don't you, between your analogies and the subject we are discussing? The correct score is not a matter of judgment, as all of your analogies are.
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expertidiot |
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fatman, if this were an IE vs. FM bout, it would have been stopped long ago. The ref would have stepped in and called a TKO as soon as he read your last post.
You do see the difference, don't you, between your analogies and the subject we are discussing? The correct score is not a matter of judgment, as all of your analogies are. |
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fatman |
matter of judgment | ||
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Whoa....so I lay on the mat, beaten and counting the lights.....big deal.
The initial post IS a matter of judgement....should people be allowed to, and if they are, should they yell "POINT, POINT, POINT" if they feel it's necessary? You say "yes" and I think that's wrong, I say "no" and you think that's wrong. Bout over....1 for EI, zero for FM.....but wait!!!! THE SCORE'S WRONG!!!!!! |
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expertidiot |
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Hahaha... great post, fatman. Outstanding.... got a good chuckle out of that ending.
Hey, by the way, just to clarify, I'm not saying that people "should" yell "POINT"... just that they're going to do it because fans in all sports are basically powerless to do otherwise, and that it's pointless to think you can change it. And if you don't believe me, try to post the wrong score at a basketball game or a football game some time as an experiment. |
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VBEye |
Decision overturned on appeal | ||
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A great leyene indeed.
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eweeyeewesee |
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expertidiot wrote:You don't think you're advocating that here? |
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expertidiot |
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"let them yell" is different than saying that they "should" yell. I don't blame people for yelling "SCORE" or
"POINT", and I certainly understand why any normal group of fans at a sporting event would do so when the incorrect score is posted.
So, yes, "let them yell" is my stance. What exactly would you propose as an alternative? Require fans everywhere not to yell about the score being wrong when the score is wrong?
Last Edited By: expertidiot
05/08/08 2:14 PM.
Edited 1 times.
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VBEye |
just a question | ||
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Are teams with shared playing teyeme philosophies concerned about a correct score?
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Torami |
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Is that rhetorical, Eye? Of course they are!
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dawgnit |
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30-28 that was the score of an 18's match that determined which team would go to JO's. A call got overturned about half way through and the one team
got their point, but the other team didn't get their point taken away. It could have made a huge difference in the match.
I think what was the worst thing about this match was that it was being reffed by 15's. 15's reffing 18's...ridiculous. By the time your daughter gets to her final year as an 18 year old, most of the shouting point and score is over, for the most part. The parents of the older kids just let it go, for the most part. But this match had missed calls all over the place by these younger girls and the frustration was really building. Remember, this game determined who was going to JO's and who was going home. It was a real shame that they were put in this position, but you really have to pay attention to what you are doing. The game was way too fast for the 15's to be reffing it. I can see both sides...poor little 15's, but hey, pay attention too. Missing that point was huge. |
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eweeyeewesee |
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expertidiot wrote: As you said, fans are going to yell. And you tried to claim people weren't necessarily yelling at the kids, even though there's rarely (if ever)
more than 1/3 adults on the crew, so yes, when you're yelling, most often you're yelling at *children.* And it's one thing to yell at a paid work
crew, but if you feel good about yelling at a group of kids, rather than going through your coach, then that's pretty pathetic, IMO.
Get your coach involved. Get the work team's coach involved. Do not yell at the kids. Period. It's no better than yelling at a kid who's line judging and makes a call you disagree with. The right score isn't a judgment call, you say? Well, I've seen plenty of instances where the parents are FLAT OUT WRONG about the score being incorrect. So "the score is wrong" isn't necessarily always a fact. You want to coach from the stands? Coach your daughter's team from the stands (if your coach allows that). Don't coach mine. (For the record, I have never said that there should never be a concern raised if one legitimately thinks a score might be wrong. I am strictly saying I am 100% against parents yelling at kids for mistakes that are most often corrected on their own without "help" from the stands.)
Last Edited By: eweeyeewesee
05/08/08 2:57 PM.
Edited 1 times.
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TxMom |
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I have never witnessed a volleyball game where getting the coach's attention was easy. I myself have "yelled" score. I use whatever voice is
necessary to be heard by the work crew. If they are near where I am sitting, I just get their attention, but if it is really loud in the venue or they are far
away, I will yell. Not in a hostile, mad way, but just to get their attention. I do not "yell" score until they've had plenty of time to change
the score. Most of the time, if done correctly, the girls are fine with being corrected because they understand what the wrong score would mean to them.
Now I have seen instances where the parents were wrong. My daughter's team was playing in a NQ a few weeks back and the score was wrong or so we thought. We hollered at the work crew who very nicely checked the score, but said it was right. It was the beginning of the game, with a score of 2 to 2 and we thought it should still be 1 to 2. Our coach finally asked too. Our captain was called over by the R1 who told her that she had given a point to the opposing team because one of our players had an illegal headband on and if one of our other players didn't get the ponytail holder off her wrist, the R1 explained she'd give the other team another point. No one on our team, including the coach, knew that this had occurred. (We knew the R1 had told the player to take the headband off, but not about the point.) If we had not asked about the score, we would not have known about the headband point. (She didn't wear the headband again.) By the way, the R1 did not give a warning about the headband first and this was the beginning of the first game. A huge percentage of players all over the convention center were wearing the same type of headband without losing a point and this same R1 had reffed 2 of our games the day before and the same player wore the same headband all the way through with no comment from anyone. My point is you can let the work crew know the score is wrong without being mean to them. Most of the time, they are happy to check. And if the parents are wrong, sometimes that can be helpful too. |
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VolleyDad9 |
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What kind of headband was she wearing??
Fun? You mean Volleyball is supposed to be fun??
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expertidiot |
eweeyeewesee.... | ||
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eweeyeewesee, you're going way out on a limb that I'm not on.
When the score that is shown to a bunch of fans is wrong, people are going to yell about it, in any sport. What part of that are you disagreeing with? All I'm doing is acknowledging human behavior that you (and anyone else on this forum) are powerless to change, regardless of the length of your post. When the score's wrong, they're gonna yell. And before you pull out the parent perjoratives (again), I coach a team and I also referee. |
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lifeonthesidelines |
interesting... | ||
dawgnit wrote: I have pretty mixed feelings about the whole yelling score thing. There are compelling and emotional arguments on both sides, and in the end I think
expertidiot is correct in arguing that discussing it is pretty much a moot point because there is no way, no how we are going to stop fans from yelling
"score" when the score is wrong, any more than we are going to stop parents from yelling "off sides" at the soccer ref (and they are
usually always wrong then).
I found the above post interesting though. After over a decade of watching club volleyball, I really believe that the older the girls get, the less
enthusiastic (= conscientious) they are. Perhaps 12's, unless they have played a couple of years already, are pretty inept, but above that, the girls at
that age are far more worried about doing it all correctly etc...and WAY less distracted by boys, cars, school, the cute brother of a teammate, the coach that
is a b%$#, their date that night, their boyfriend(s), how they really should be playing back row in front of the coach's niece, and most of all, how much
they don't want to be "sitting at this stupid table reffing these sucky teams when they could be taking a NAP."
I love teens, that is why I teach high school, but I would ask one of my 15 year old sophomores to babysit my kids (or ref a game) before my Seniors, especially when they are getting ready for prom, graduation, college visits etc... I am truly sad when bad officiating takes a team out of a qualifier and a trip to JO's--it is one of the really unfair things that can happen to them in a tournament, but to say that an 18's game is too fast for 15's is a pretty broad assumption. I believe my daughter's Open qualified 15's, most of who have played top-team volleyball for many years, are much more capable of reffing an 18's game than some of the 18's I watched my older daughter's team play against. Age has nothing to do with learning credibility and accountability. |
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lifeonthesidelines |
headbands | ||
VolleyDad9 wrote: I would guess one of the thin little hard plastic ones that are very common this year and very dangerous and illegal in all sports, including volleyball
because getting spiked on the head with one on can really cut their heads. However, for some reason, refs (and coaches) seem to be allowing them the past
couple of years. It drives me nuts to see one of them on my daughters head!!! It sounded rather arbitrary to suddenly penalize one team, but the fact of the
matter is none of the girls should be allowed to wear hard plastic or metal in their hair during any sport.
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passorfail |
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I have called out SCORE / POINT when a scoring mistake was made. I guess it is because I thought that if someone makes a mistake and they were made aware of
it, they would want to correct it.
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MyNameHere |
Headbands | ||
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Hard headbands are not illegal under USAV rules. That's probably why the refs are letting the girls wear them.
In high school, nothing hard or metal can be in the hair (or at least that's how it was a few years ago, the last time I checked). There is no USAV prohibition on any "hair adornment" other than it can be no wider than two inches (so no hats or bandanas that cover the whole head). Metal bobby pins, hard plastic barrettes, and hard plastic headbands are all allowed, at the wearer's own risk. |
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lifeonthesidelines |
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Well, that would definitely be one way in which volleyball is very different from other competitive sports (regarding earlier posts). The real problem is that
it is not always about the wearers own risk. We had a girl on our junior high team collide with another player on the court and the barrette the girl was
wearing cut her face open badly enough that she went to the emergency room, got stitches, and still has a scar across her cheek. I find it disturbing that it
is not illegal because it allows a potential for injury for no reason whatsoever. There are multitudes of safe hair adornments the girls can wear. Thanks for
the information though. Rarely do I find schools more progressive than club as far as rules and such.
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TxMom |
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It was one of the thin plastic headbands. It's funny to know they are not illegal. Should they be wearing them?? I don't think so, but the fact is,
lots of girls are wearing them. At the NQ (Far Western), they were everywhere. And like I said, the same ref didn't seem to have a problem with it the
day before. But why not just tell her to take it off? I could see giving a point to the other side if the ref had to tell her more than once to remove it or
giving a delay of game for the time it took to remove it, but this was ridiculous. Totally threw our girls off for a few minutes.
I agree with EI that people will yell score no matter what anyone says. We should strive to teach everyone to be a bit more patient and not yell in a hostile way. That's the best we can do. |
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VolleyDad9 |
The rule... | ||
There is no USAV prohibition on any "hair adornment" other than it can be no wider than two inches (so no hats or bandanas that cover the whole head). Metal bobby pins, hard plastic barrettes, and hard plastic headbands are all allowed, at the wearer's own risk.
Okay, there is the rule....not sure where there is any reference to no more than 2 inches wide...I
think that is a high school thing. Not defending the referee, but if the referee determined that the "headgear may cause an
injury"....
Fun? You mean Volleyball is supposed to be fun??
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