18 Open: KC Power and Dallas Premier 1 to 25 for a bid

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Author	Comment
TeaWB		#41	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 163 (04/21/08 12:13 PM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Ethics and Eligibility *Event Arbitrators* Event Arbitrators shall serve as the first level for hearing and resolving ethics and eligibility issues at a specific USA Volleyball event. Teams or individuals accused of committing violations of ethics and/or eligibility rules and regulations at qualifying and/or championship events shall meet with the Event Arbitrators(s). The authority for the Event Arbitrator begins with the arrival of a team and individual participants in the event's city or forty-eight (48) hours prior to the first day of competition, whichever is earlier, and shall continue through the duration of the event through its conclusion. USAV Qualifier Manual - December 2007 26 Decisions of the Event Arbitrator shall be conveyed immediately to the affected parties and may be appealed to the Event Ethics and Eligibility Appeals Committee appointed for each qualifying and/or championship event of USA Volleyball. *Event Ethics and Eligibility Appeals Committee* An Event Ethics and Eligibility Appeals Committee shall be formed for each qualifying and championship event sponsored by USA Volleyball. Each committee shall be composed of three (3) members, one (1) of whom shall meet the definition of USA Volleyball as a domestic player. Each committee shall act on appeals of the ethics and eligibility decisions that occur during the conduct of the event. The conduct of the event shall commence when an individual or a team arrives at the site of the event, or forty-eight (48) hours in advance of the first day of competition for that event, whichever is earlier, and shall conclude with the departure of the individual and/or team from the city in which the event has been held. If the committee is of the opinion that a violation is of such a nature that requires further review or more serious discipline, they may file a recommendation with the Member Organization that the team/participant represents and/or with the USVBA Corporation Ethics and Eligibility Committee for extended disciplinary measures. Would this situation fall within these parameters?
pastrami		#42	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 78 (04/21/08 12:25 PM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Seems like an appropriate approach for KC Power would have been to only play the girls that were committed to going to JOs and sit the girls who were opting to start college early and instruct the girls who were playing to play as hard as they could. That way, if they qualified for Open, then they deserved to be an Open team. If they didn't, then they deserved to be a National team. It seems like the club went further than this. In my mind there is a BIG difference between sitting girls and telling girls to intentionally tank a match.
loganpkbt	predicting the future, choices and losses	#43	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 584 (04/21/08 12:27 PM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I do expect that the coaches and directors could have foreseen some this. It is not an uncommon scenario for 18 to get the dwindles for various reasons. Every team but especially 18's team should have a frank come to Jesus meeting in November about the level of commitment, schedule and expectations. An individual who signs onto a open level team signs on to play the whole enchilada. I hope that that the players shared their "change in plans" as soon as possible so that discussion and decisions reached would not be during a qualifier as there are too many emotions and ramifications to think that the best choices can be reached on the fly during a competition. I think you have as a club coach and team two choices to consider. 1)Play to win all the matches on your schedule if you earn an open bid then full out your roster with younger players in your organization form teams that did not qualify - giving experience and exposure to these young girls. Put you big girl spandex on, play big and go down swinging as the honor belongs to those in the competition who give it their all despite the odds. That is the lesson sports should teach. 2) If this was not possible and this coach or club knew before hand that they were not going to take the open bid and play their then they should have dropped form the tournament. It would mean a big financial loss of entry fee and travel costs that are non refundable and I would have been ticked as a club director, coach, player or parent parent to loose it until I learned from the club exactly why the team withdrew. Financial loss but not loss of personal, team and club respect. With the choice that was made here it was a much bigger loss.
expertidiot		#44	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 323 (04/21/08 12:33 PM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Torami wrote: This incident echos issues the U.S. faces at its highest levels; the sacrifice of ideals in the pursuit of goals. Ouch... don't go there. It doesn't belong on this forum. One could easily argue just the opposite... that if anything, the US has not been willing to sacrifice any ideals in exchange for what is really achievable. I liked your 14-Open analysis a lot better than your foray into political analysis.
Torami		#45	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 724 (04/21/08 12:47 PM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	We "go there" on this board now and then, sometimes even with civility, but I'll agee to keep this one out of the political realm.. plenty to be said without making the comparison.
loganpkbt	pastrami	#46	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 584 (04/21/08 12:58 PM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	is also a good . This veteran cooler mom would think this was a good nourishing team choice for the tournament
loganpkbt	pastrami	#47	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 584 (04/21/08 12:58 PM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	oops didn't mean to repeat myself
expertidiot	hard to keep quiet on this one...	#48	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 323 (04/21/08 12:59 PM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	pastrami and pepperpop hit the nail right on the head.... pastrami's prescription seems so obvious that I'm just shocked they didn't take this approach. I keep thinking that there HAS to be more to this story. Maybe it's just that I hope there's more to this story. Why didn't they play to win with the players who will still be on the team in July? What was the downside, if they are going to play in Dallas at the national division anyway? Out of fairness, I'm still waiting to hear the other side of the story. So far, this seems like a disturbing lack of integrity and appallingly bad leadership. They had an opportunity to do something great and they opted for... this? Nebraska Nostradamus, one technique obfuscators use is to compare one situation to a situation that you haven't heard any details about, then demand that you either condemn both or neither. Sorry, but you don't have to know anything about Spokane to say "shame on you" about this NLQ situation. All we know about Spokane is that there were apparently no teams significantly affected (either adversely or positively), except for the one team who was cheated out of the competition they deserved to face in a national qualifier final. No team lost a bid or won a bid because of any shenanigans in Spokane, did they? But all that is beside the point - how about someone research it, write the full story, and then we can all comment on it. To the coach and the leadership of KC Power (and for that matter, anyone who waves this situation away by bringing up their reputation): "It takes 20 years to build a reputation and five minutes to ruin it. If you think about that, you'll do things differently." -- Warren Buffett
pepperpop		#49	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 61 (04/21/08 1:13 PM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	i don't know who you are, expertidiot..... .......but i like you. your comments re this subject are dead on.
Ukie1		#50	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 163 (04/21/08 1:20 PM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Great word expert had to look it up...http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/obfuscatory
vb4me2	Step Back	#51	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 2 (04/21/08 1:24 PM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	It appears to me that everyone here is "ASSUMING" that this match was thrown. I personally was not in attendance and don't know how many of the people commenting here were actually there. Furthermore, I don't know that anyone on this forum was actually on the court, actually heard instruction from the coaches or decisions by the players to do anything in this match that would compromise integrity. This IS a top notch - classy organization with more integrity and respect than any other organization that I have known. Has anyone stopped to think that if the match was thrown, that possibly it could be that they were considering others? Possibly allowing someone else the opportunity to take the bid that would be able to compete at that level. At this age, these girls are old enough to make these types of decisions based on their own situations. IF this was their decision, we should all "assume" that they made the decision that was best given the situation at hand. We should all "assume" that they did not do anything intentional to hurt anyone else in the process. Let's not demean the entire organization or the players and families of the entire organization. There are many great athletes, families and coaches in this organization that conduct themselves with the upmost character, integrity and respect. These personal qualities are all qualities driven by the director of this club. All of these assumptions and accusations need not reflect the entire club. If a mistake was made, I'm sure everyone in this forum has made a mistake in their life. However, not any one of us knows for certain what really happend. Not one of us was on the court. You know what they say .... when you "Assume" you make an ass - u - me!!! Everyone please be considerate of the other players, coaches and athletes in this organization before you start bashing the entire organization.
Torami		#52	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 724 (04/21/08 1:29 PM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	vb4me2, you make a good point about the rest of the organization. There is a difference, however, between assuming something, and accepting as truth something presented by someone whom you trust, who was there, and whose interests were best served by remaining silent.
kcvballer		#53	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 129 (04/21/08 1:53 PM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	The head coach of the 18's team is also the club director. So I think these actions do reflect directly on the organization. This may have been a poor decision by whoever made it but I think it's time to put this thread to rest.
loganpkbt	assuming	#54	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 584 (04/21/08 2:05 PM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	This is a legit story and issue that are important to discuss. Kudos to John for reporting. He reported that plans changed before the tournament and National level was were this club/team decided where they belonged. If that is not correct the coach and or club director from this organization should refute that publicly. At the very least adult club directors and coach have an obligation not to place their players in the situation where it might look to people or where they would be be tempted or "forced" to throw a match in the first place. As momma once told me... hon if you don't want a baby why you climbing into the backseat with that boy?
expertidiot		#55	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 323 (04/21/08 2:08 PM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	kcvballer wrote: The head coach of the 18's team is also the club director. So I think these actions do reflect directly on the organization. This may have been a poor decision by whoever made it but I think it's time to put this thread to rest. Say what? Some others have said that we shouldn't jump to conclusions and "assume" anything, and I agree with that. But that doesn't mean that we should just "put it to rest." Let's hear from the club. No way is it time to "put this thread to rest."
pepperpop		#56	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 61 (04/21/08 2:38 PM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	sorry, kcvballer, but this thread ain't gonna rest any time soon. and vb4me2, it is an unfortunate fact that the reputation of the entire club WILL be affected by the unethical actions of the 18-1 team. were i the club director, my energies right now would be 100% focused on investigating what happened, dealing with it strongly and forthrightly, and restoring the reputation of the club. usav needs to conduct a similar investigation with an eye toward protecting the integrity of the qualifying process. and i've gotta respond to another of vb4me2's statements: he/she states, "Has anyone stopped to think that if the match was thrown, that possibly it could be that they were considering others? Possibly allowing someone else the opportunity to take the bid that would be able to compete at that level." the problem with that contention, vb4me2, is that KC power threw some matches but not others. they knocked A5 out of gold contention 15-13 day one, played hard to beat downstate on day 2 and then tanked vs premier. so if their intent was to steer the bid to premier, i guess they succeeded. ya think anyone from KC put a wager on premier getting a bid?? maybe a friend coaches the premier team? i'm not suggesting that this occurred; rather, i think that someone @ KC made a horrible mistake that they (hopefully) now regret, but one walks a slippery slope in athletics when one doesn't play to win all the time. as others have already mentioned, there were several honorable alternatives KC power could have pursued to address the morphing interests of their team: 1. withdraw from northern lights after deciding that the bid already in hand to the national division was sufficient. 2. drop down and play at the club level @ lights, allowing any bid they earn at that level to trickle down. 3. play at the open level at lights, but only with the players who would be going to dallas. (this option seems so obviously correct that for the life of me i can't understand why they didn't opt for it.) 4. play to win w/ all players at the open level and then show up in dallas with a depleted team and make the best of it. but to play to win against some teams and intentionally lose to others was unconscionable. it brought dishonor to the sport and to the club. shame shame shame. i inferred from john's article that not all of the girls were on board with the notion of tanking the match(es), and my heart really goes out to them and their families. though i don't know a soul @ KC power, i am mad at the coaches for putting the girls or allowing the girls to be put in a no-win ethical situation. not fair. Last Edited By: pepperpop 04/21/08 4:27 PM. Edited 1 times.
JTawa		#57	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 13850 (04/21/08 5:56 PM) Administrator More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Let's impose some order on this discussion: piling on is not allowed. If you have something productive and fresh to add to the discussion, have at it. But please do not make your reply a "me too" post. Thanks
gojhawks	CLUBS THROWING MATCHES	#58	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 13 (04/21/08 6:56 PM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Again, why is the anger only directed at KC Power. Clubs throw matches more frequently than anyone would like to think. Especially in California. We have festival only clubs that compete in qualifiers because they want to play great competition. However, since they are committed to going to Festival (keep costs down, stay local, whatever the reason), they can't get in qualification position. So, they lose. It happens and there isn't this big blow about them. Why not?
JTawa		#59	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 13850 (04/21/08 7:18 PM) Administrator More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Well, it doesn't happen nearly as frequently anymore as more clubs think about JOs as an option, I have personally never seen them throw a match as opposed to playing different personnel, I have made a stink about that in the past and, in every case I can remember, the Festival-bound team bowed out short of playing in any ultimate matches.
pepperpop		#60	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 61 (04/21/08 7:22 PM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	i can speak only for myself, gojhawks. not being affiliated with a west coast team, i've never been exposed to the practice. i do recall quite a stir being created last year when TCA "rested" most of their starters with the apparent intent of losing a match to get into an easier pool from which to qualify--a strategy which worked, by the way. the incident spawned an interesting discussion about the ethics of playing to win versus intentionally losing a battle to better one's chances of winning the war. but at least in that instance the ultimate goal was to WIN a bid, and i never heard that any of the athletes were directed to intentionally lose a match. i'm pretty certain that if my daughter's team lost to a "festival" team at a qualifier that went on to throw a match to a team that consequently qualified for the bid, she would feel cheated, and justifiably so. and i certainly wouldn't want her to play for a club that would intentionally tank a match for any reason. .....but that's just me. and perhaps expertidiot and a few others who have piled on here (sorry JT...). if this is common practice, usav has got to step up to protect the integrity of the process.

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18 Open: KC Power and Dallas Premier 1 to 25 for a bid