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VBDad0927 |
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You're right. Nothing get settled here but we can hope that the powers that be read through this and possibly take away some ideas.
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Barney |
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But the JDVA put this forth as a proposal for JO qualifying, not for the JDVA Championship, so clearly they are using this as a "straw man" in
negotiating with USA Volleyball.
My original question was strictly process related. What is the status of discussions/negotiations? Is there any ongoing communication between JDVA and USA Volleyball on these issues? Is there at least a process established to discuss/resolve these issues before next season? I know it's probably outside the Prepvolleyball reporter budget, but it'd be great to get a mid-season, unbiased article on these types of issues and understand whether any progress is being made. |
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VolleyballFan13 |
yep. | ||
Barney wrote: I am wondering the same information. |
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invbfan |
How it will work!! | ||
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Are people really that niave to believe this is not all about money? Doesn't it strike you as odd that the clubs "in charge" (not all the
members) of JDVA are all clubs that have a facility and get no money from the qualifing process? We are talking about millions of dollars here. If it is
changed to a regional power league system, that will force a lot more teams to come to their facility in a more prestigeous setting and therefore make them
more money to run the facility and recruit more kids to thier club. They can charge slightly less and make a lot more per year. Simple business strategy of
how do we make more and do less!! When these "leaders" get more money, they will come back to USAV. That is the status!!
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tresmariasvb |
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BINGO!!! Ka-ching!!!
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TeaWB |
ALL about money? | ||
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I do not agree with you that it is ALL about money. I'm sure money is a factor, but not the overriding one here. If there is a regional power league,
you are correct in saying that those clubs that own their own facility will benefit, but only if the power leagues are held in their facility or are run by
their organization. Other clubs (non-JVDA) that own their own facility stand to gain also if they are selected to either host or run the power league events.
Since the majority of the JVDA clubs that are not participating in NQs are located in the midwest, you're talking about one main zone (Mideast) that would
be the focus of your argument about money. The other three are the Northern Lights, Southern and Eastern zones and they include only one state (and not
every club in said state) in each who are actively staying away from NQs. Some of those states are on the outer edges of their zone, making it unlikely that
they would consistently have the opportunity to host these events. There are 8 zones then, the HUGE majority of clubs in each zone are clubs which aren't
boycotting NQs, that would be making money from this proposal also. That money would be going to the host club/entity, not the JVDA.
As to the qualifiers - there are millions of dollars that are involved, but that's the overall cost to run the event. I'm sure thousands are made (not by any means chump change) by the host, but not millions. If that were the case, you'd see more clubs lining up to run the events. If you read the proposal carefully, you would see that the second bullet point states that "The JVDA is proposing 9 zones that would be run by the entities that currently run qualifiers. " How is that going to make these JVDA clubs any money? Finally, although a really nice facility is a great thing to have, it is the coaches and to some extent, the past success of a club, that will truly "recruit" players to their club. |
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VBREPORTER |
Open and Club | ||
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I've read with interest the postings on this thread. While I think there are many elements dividing USA Volleyball and JVDA, in particular revenue sharing from the NQs, and understanding improvements and concessions are needed from both organizations on behalf of the young players, I do not believe the qualification process is a consideration for a significant percentage of the young players.
First, USA JR Volleyball is divided into 40 regions, not nine qualifiers or the 9 (?) Zonals proposed by JVDA. Each of those regions is allocated bids in the forty-eight team field of American and National Club Division at JR Nationals. Of those forty-eight bids, 40 (81%) are awarded in the forty regional competitions (Power League, Regional Championships, etc.) based on membership size.
What that translates to is that USA Volleyball makes an attempt for Club teams to never have to travel outside their own backyard and incur travel costs to qualify for Nationals, again forty local regions, not nine NQs or Zonals. The question to be answered by coaches, club directors, etc. would therefore be "Why are we, a club team traveling, to chase a very long shot in an attempt to get the one allocated National or American Club be in a field of 100+ teams at an NQ?" I would contend that Club teams do not travel to NQs to qualify but for other reasons, environment, competitions against teams outside their region, recruitment, etc. with the understanding that the travel is elective, not mandated by USA Volleyball, and in fact quite the contrary and discouraged based on the regional bid allocation process in place.
Yes there is one National and American Club bid awarded at each NQ to send the top-two teams home with something other than a $3 medal and trophy they'll probably lose on the way to the airport but for a Club team to state that travel is necessary to qualify is inaccurate with a better chance of winning a Nigerian lottery. Even At-Large bids for these two club divisions are awarded back through the regions, meaning unless you're in the top-two at an NQ your final finish beyond those positions has no bearing on your chance of getting an At-Large bid but your play and ranking within your region does.
On the other end of the spectrum are the Open teams. Those teams are indeed required to travel to NQs to qualify for one of the twenty-eight Open bids at NQs, and the travel is indeed expensive. However, again, we're talking about a very select group of teams and elite athletes that are in the significant minority of the USA Volleyball or JVDA membership. For their families, the travel is not "elective" but "mandated" by the current USA Volleyball qualification process.
As we continue this thread, I believe it necessary to incorporate accurate information and a common thought that Club team travel to Qualify for JR Nationals is elective and, in actuality, discourage by the current USA Volleyball bid qualification process. On the other hand, travel for the elite Open teams and their players are indeed mandated for this relatively small percentage of volleyball families.
I would suggest a level of awareness, if not concern, for any parent of a Club level team of either organizations (USA Volleyball or JVDA) attempt to alter the current process that would require Club teams to travel to qualify now or in the future by their inclusion with Open level teams or competitions. As a Club team parent, I'd be pretty happy in the knowledge that the vast majority of bids to JR Nationals are awarded at my regional level, in my own backyard, and that any travel cost I'm now incurring are elective, can be avoided if necessary, and are required only by my club or coach for some element outside qualification for JR Nationals. As an Open team parent, I'd continue to equate cost versus value for my player and family in participation on an Open team and associated costs. |
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VolleyDad9 |
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Based on Ntrux suggestions and my previous proposals, I was never speaking to changing the Club qualification process. My suggestions have always only
concerned Open. Also, Ntrux' most recent proposal was only addressing Qualifiers and not necessarily the overall process for qualification.
Fun? You mean Volleyball is supposed to be fun??
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VolleyDad9 |
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TeaWB-
If money is not the overriding factor, what is? If it is representation, what is the overriding issue for JVDA that they want representated?
Fun? You mean Volleyball is supposed to be fun??
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VBREPORTER |
Here you go... | ||
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If that was your point VDad, then the solution is simple, correct? Either USA Volleyball or JVDA, and I could care less which, states:
"At the beginning of each JR Volleyball season, each team will declare whether they are an Open or Club level team. Once declared, a team will remain within that classification for the entire season.
For Club Division there will be forty regions. Based on that declaration, Club teams will participate only within their competitions in their regional events with bids to the National Tournament allocated and awarded within the region.
Teams declaring themselves as Open teams will travel to only one of the four National Qualifiers where the twenty-eight team Open Field at the National Tournament will be decided by the top-seven teams at these events receiving a bid. Club Division will no longer be offered at these events."
I can here the screaming now as the same people that complain about high club costs are now denied getting to travel and play outside their regions. That only overshadowed by the scream of the NQ organizations as they lose their cash-cows of Club level teams, the vast majority of revenue….but you know what? The only one now paying the high costs is the one's also deriving the most benefit, the Open Teams. |
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lifeonthesidelines |
all in this together... | ||
Nebraska Nostradamus wrote: Just wanted to lend my support to your assertions Neb Nost...of course there are issues with NQ's and such. Any time you have such a huge and diverse
organization, problems crop up periodically, but I would say the vast majority of us trust that things are being done to at least attempt improvements and,
hey, if there weren't problems what would we discuss on here?
At any rate, I am with you--I do NOT want to be lumped in the "US" that is unhappy and trying to use their size and "Have" status to
force change. A lot of mention has been made on here about money, and we pretty much all know it is about money on both sides, but I suspect it goes more
towards POWER--who is making the decisions and who WANTS to be making the decisions instead or thinks they can do it better. IMHO a lot of this is a
power-grabbing move with the divide-and-conquer mentality being strongly utilized--thus the need to assert a representation of "US."
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VolleyDad9 |
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I continue to not understand the logic behind not allowing travel outside of your "region".
Disallow the travel and then you reduce the potential income for USAV and whomever is running the qualifiers. That's kind of like cities not wanting Wal-Mar, Home Depot and Target to come to town and then complaining because they have to raise taxes because they have no sales tax base..
Fun? You mean Volleyball is supposed to be fun??
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TeaWB |
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I think money IS one of the major factors in this split, but not in the way that some people have been claiming. The claims that JVDA wants access to this
supposed pot of gold (NQs) is NOT the issue, in my opinion. Rather, it's the amount that these teams spend each subsequent year to attempt to qualify in
the open field. I don't think it's that they want more money coming in from a source they have no control over (NQs); it's that they want to
decrease the amount that is going out of their parents' pockets. The other main area is directly related, and I would say that it is the qualifying
process for the open division.
Like it or not, a club's reputation is usually built on two things, especially recently (10-15 years). The first is its coaching staff from top to bottom, but particularly at the top. The second is how many teams your club has sent to JOs. I might go even further in saying that it is how many teams your club sent in open, but that might be stretching it a bit too much. That does NOT mean that clubs that don't send teams to JOs (open or club) don't have a good reputation. However, if one were to take a poll that asked people to name clubs that were viewed as successful clubs, I would guess that the majority of the clubs mentioned would be teams that have competed and been successful at JOs, particularly in the open division. SPRI, KIVA, Northern Lights, Mizuno Long Beach, (Texas teams forgive me, I'm not too familiar with all the clubs to single one out, but you've been successful also), Epic, Front Range, etc... There are so many more to list, but you get my point. However, JVDA's attempt to address this issue of cost doesn't resonate with the majority of the volleyball community because of the small scope of families and teams that would be affected in the open field. Not even 1% (open qualified teams only) of the USAV estimated # of participants would be affected. That number might approach 5% if you take into account ALL the open teams that participated in all the NQs. I believe that's why so many people either don't care or are strongly against the JVDA. There is an overwhelming majority of players, teams, clubs, and parents that this open field debate doesn't touch. Like I said earlier, "Their goal is admirable; their target group is too small to matter for most people." Competing in open is a CHOICE that teams have made, so that also bothers people as well. (rhetorical) They've chosen to do this, so why are they complaining about it? I like the idea of traveling less to keep costs down, but still having the opportunity to qualify for open in a manner other than JUST the qualifiers. I don't profess to know how to do it or if it can even be done, but the IDEA of it is nice. I do NOT like eliminating the NQs, as I believe they benefit way too many people to just toss them aside. If the open field MUST be filled through NQs, then I think the field needs to expand in order to offer more bids at NQs. If you expand to 48, you could conceivably offer 4/5 for each of the NQs and still have 12/3 at large teams. I believe that if the field at JOs is expanded and the bids are increased at each NQ, you'll see less teams going to 2-3 qualifiers and more doing 1-2. That will bring the cost down, meaning the JVDA folks will be happier, making them less upset with the system. However, if they vow to fight until an open bid can come from a place other than by attending a NQ, I believe the standoff will continue. As to their other objectives, I think most of them ARE secondary, but I do believe that representation on the Board has some merit. Of the 40 + members, most have not been on the business side of running a club in many years. They may be in touch with volleyball, but I believe they're out of touch with the rising costs in junior volleyball. The only biographies I can find show that these members haven't been active with a club since the 80s and early 90s. Why 6 player reps and 1 more player as an at-large member? I know the national teams are important, but the majority of USAV's membership is in its junior ranks. I don't know what representation would gain given the size of the board, but it's a shame that junior players, their parents, coaches, and clubs that make up the largest chunk of membership don't have anyone to speak up for their issues. Shortening the season has value, but the only REAL way to make progress on this is to shorten it on the front end instead of the back end, as most everyone that has posted here agrees.
Last Edited By: TeaWB
03/29/08 6:02 PM.
Edited 1 times.
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